Phil Ivey wins $11 Million - Casino refuses to pay

sam1chips

sam1chips

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I notice bent cards or folded cards in the deck when playing in tournaments. Is that not an illegal move to fold the cards?

If it is not, well then I may as well start doing the same thing.

Pisses me off people try to cheat like that. Grow some balls.

Totally different situation. Ivey wasn't changing the cards! The cards were already like that (as far as I know).

Also, if this was in a poker game (as some people on here have alluded to), other players who feel cheated against have every right to request a different deck, or accuse the player of cheating.

Ironically, the dealer/casino sorta had the same chance, but agreed to Ivey's requests to deal the cards a certain way, etc etc. Now they are going back on that, and want their money back.

I agree they probably have a case with the card manufacturing company, but not against Ivey
 
OzExorcist

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Honestly, I'll even be a bit surprised if they end up having a case against the card manufacturer. The reason being that even on the smallest print jobs, printers typically provide the customer with a "proof", a sample that they need to sign off on before they print the whole job.

If the casino signed off on a proof that included the defect... yet again IANAL, but you'd have to figure that'd put a big hole in the casino's case. If the cards are different to the proof, then the manufacturer could have big problems.
 
sam1chips

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Honestly, I'll even be a bit surprised if they end up having a case against the card manufacturer. The reason being that even on the smallest print jobs, printers typically provide the customer with a "proof", a sample that they need to sign off on before they print the whole job.

If the casino signed off on a proof that included the defect... yet again IANAL, but you'd have to figure that'd put a big hole in the casino's case. If the cards are different to the proof, then the manufacturer could have big problems.

Interesting, I didn't know that/think of that...

Regardless, will be interesting to see how it all turns out
 
S3mper

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Yup

heres how it happened

Casino- Ivey is edge sorting

Ivey- wohoo I'm winning turn those cards around a lot for me dealer and use the decks I want

-dealer- I have to ask for permission

Casino- Go ahead I bet he loses anyways

Ivey- Wohooo I'm winning time to cash out

Casino- No, you were edge sorting

Ivey- emotionless stare
 
OzExorcist

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I can absolutely believe that was the case when he was caught and denied his payout at Crockfords.

The Borgata case just defies belief though - they let him keep doing it in multiple sessions, across several months, and they paid him after each session. It's only now they've worked it out that they're suing him. That one can only have been a colossal failure on the part of their security team...
 
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Bazslazs93

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He's a great poker player, i dont think he is cheating, its just a missunderstand
 
S3mper

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He's a great poker player, i dont think he is cheating, its just a missunderstand

He was edge sorting and like card counting it's not cheating just frowned upon by the casino's.. He has never been accused of cheating in poker or anything like that.
 
rickypr18

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Even if he cheated. Kudos to him. casinos steal millions from people, good to see someone steal or win millions from a casino.
 
TimboJonez

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Pay Phil Ivey his money, he clearly knows the casinos very well by now(hes addicted to every kind of gambling.) Just the casino playing mind games with the lawyer fees and dragging it on in the media.
 
OzExorcist

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Actually, I don't think it's been confirmed who leaked the story to the media in the first place - I don't see how the casino would have anything to gain from the story getting out though...
 
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Wickedonesin

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Did Phil ever get his money? Follow-up?
 
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sylpoker1

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I was wondering what ever happened in this case also? i think phil is involved in another similar case now too , with another casino.
 
OzExorcist

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I was wondering what ever happened in this case also? i think phil is involved in another similar case now too , with another casino.

He is: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-news-events-63/borgata-suing-phil-ivey-9-6-a-243513/

Though in that case the casino actually paid him his money, and now they're suing to get it back. But he's alleged to have done exactly the same thing that he did at Crockfords.

No public updates on either case, which is pretty much to be expected.
 
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No public updates on either case, which is pretty much to be expected.

I was waiting/expecting updates after the initial publicity, even if it is just to say they have reached a private undisclosed agreement.

I am surprised there hasn't been anything. Perhaps you are right there won't be any more news at all.
 
or3o1990

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They don't mind taking it but sure don't want to give it back. He should get his money even if it takes a little lawering to do so. Otherwise, his suspicious friend will be the most expensive piece of ace ever!
 
pokertroll

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Don't think he has the money still tied up in a lawsuit for months.
 
OzExorcist

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Is this legal?

Is what legal? The edge sorting bit, or the not paying him his money bit?

If it ever gets before a judge I guess we'll find out :p
 
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steviewayne69

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Is what legal? The edge sorting bit, or the not paying him his money bit?

If it ever gets before a judge I guess we'll find out :p

Good point, if it ever does get before a judge, I think it will boil down to the person or entity that pays the most taxes. After all, who contributes more money to their respective community through tax dollars, Ivey or a Casino? The casino is most likely doing this because they weren't expecting to pay that much. Whatever the case, the above scenario seems the most likely.
 
OzExorcist

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If the Crockfords case ever does end up before a judge, it'll be in England (where the casino pays its taxes), not the US (where Ivey pays his taxes).

Even so, I'd like to think that's not what it'd come down to - I mean if that were the case, no class action lawsuit would ever get up, but they clearly do.

I'd still be surprised if this even made it as far as a judge, both parties would surely rather settle this quietly out of the public eye. But then I was surprised to find out they hadn't already settled it quietly when news of the lawsuit broke, so that shows how much I know :p
 
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Why is it whenever someone wins a decent amount there is always some kind of "collusion" or "cheating" accusations?Maybe the player is just good. But even still, most of the cheating isnt even really cheating, like with cards. The house is just looking to get your money, not the other way around and this incident only proves that to be true.
 
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This seems no different than "card counting" to me. He found an advantage and used it to his own success. As the article states, it was still a random game. He merely had more info than the Casino would have liked him to have. I thought with card counters (in BJ) they merely ask you to leave and not come back. But in this case, Ivey took so much money... they are trying to get some/all back.
 
OzExorcist

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Why is it whenever someone wins a decent amount there is always some kind of "collusion" or "cheating" accusations?Maybe the player is just good. But even still, most of the cheating isnt even really cheating, like with cards. The house is just looking to get your money, not the other way around and this incident only proves that to be true.

That'd be because there is no skill in a regular game of baccarat / punto banco. There's no such thing as a "good" player. There are just players that get lucky from time to time - unless the casino has a flaw in its procedures (as it did in both Ivey cases) and a player tries to take advantage.

And I'd argue the point about "The house is just looking to get your money, not the other way around" too. I mean what kind of idiot player goes into a casino not hoping to take the casino's money?

This seems no different than "card counting" to me. He found an advantage and used it to his own success. As the article states, it was still a random game. He merely had more info than the Casino would have liked him to have. I thought with card counters (in BJ) they merely ask you to leave and not come back. But in this case, Ivey took so much money... they are trying to get some/all back.

The major difference between this incident and ordinary card counting is that edge sorting requires both defective cards and physical manipulation of the cards (they ones you want 'marked' have to be turned the opposite way to the rest of the deck, and then stay that way).

A blackjack card counter, on the other hand, can ply their trade without ever even touching the cards.

Whether this makes any actual legal difference I have no idea though.
 
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Maybe the Casino was to be in the media. Even bad Promotion is Promotion.
 
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The legality issues were well-covered over on PokerNews. And there's even a link to the lawsuit PDF if you really, really are having trouble getting to sleep tonight.
 
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