dhix
Rising Star
Silver Level
Last edited by a moderator:
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Az4zel
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Its like impossible to cheat at baccarat or punto banco. you don't even touch the cards. High rollers love to play baccarat. They bet big and fast and can run up serious money like he did.
If you have seen "Casino" there is a high roller who plays baccarat there and robert de niro was explaining how these rich guys who bet big and play fast and shut down casinos. The guy in the movie had recently done so closed 2 casinos because he won so much in baccarat.
In the movie he wins 2 million and tries to leave. But they make up this elaborate plan to get him to stay because eventually he'll lose it all. They told him the plane wasn't working he missed his flight. They got him back to stay another night and he lost the 2 million he won, plus another million of his own.
Great job Phil! he'll get his money, they have to pay him.
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If you have seen "Casino" there is a high roller who plays baccarat there and robert de niro was explaining how these rich guys who bet big and play fast and shut down casinos. The guy in the movie had recently done so closed 2 casinos because he won so much in baccarat.
In the movie he wins 2 million and tries to leave. But they make up this elaborate plan to get him to stay because eventually he'll lose it all. They told him the plane wasn't working he missed his flight. They got him back to stay another night and he lost the 2 million he won, plus another million of his own.
Great job Phil! he'll get his money, they have to pay him.
-A
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Oh dear...
Have a look at some of the linked articles: if the cards used have a printing flaw, and you can convince the dealer to arrange the cards in a certain way for you, then you can gain an advantage. That is, apparently, exactly what happened in Ivey's case.
It's also not true that you don't get to touch the cards in baccarat (at least, not in all cases). As far as I can tell, a big attraction for some players is that there are games where they do get to touch and "squeeze" the cards. I've never understood the fascination myself, nobody ever changed the value of a hand by squeezing it, but some people seem to think this is a very important feature of a baccarat game
You're right on the other points though, and it's a big part of the reason the casino tried to get Ivey to agree upfront to playing for two nights. It's probably also why they continued to let him play, even though it should have been obvious that he was advantage playing: they thought there was a good chance he'd lose it all back and then some anyway.
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IvanShovski
Visionary
Silver Level
Yes, at the local casino it is customary for baccarat players to "squeeze" the cards so tightly that the cards end up creased. The casino must break out a new deck after each hand.It's also not true that you don't get to touch the cards in baccarat (at least, not in all cases). As far as I can tell, a big attraction for some players is that there are games where they do get to touch and "squeeze" the cards. I've never understood the fascination myself, nobody ever changed the value of a hand by squeezing it, but some people seem to think this is a very important feature of a baccarat game
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redcoyote211
Rising Star
Silver Level
wow,i hope Phil gets his money.the casino is just trying to swindle Ivey out of his money.If he was cheating then why give him the 1million euros?I never seen a las vegas casino give a cheat there start up money back to them.right:toilet:
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dakota4real
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Hmm, I won $15,000 at a casino once playing NL Hold'em. When I went to cash in my chips they wouldn't pay me without providing photo ID. I didnt have any on me at that moment but I did have my passport at a motel I was staying at. I was pissed. Told them that had I lost $15,000 that they wouldn't ever ask me for ID so I made them pay for a cab back to my motel and back. Everything eventually worked out for me and I enjoyed my biggest win ever.
Like someone else on here posted...the casino should pony-up and pay Phil, especially since there was no foul play detected from 10 cameras.
Like someone else on here posted...the casino should pony-up and pay Phil, especially since there was no foul play detected from 10 cameras.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
That's pretty standard at casinos everywhere for wins over a certain amount. It's for regulatory/tax purposes and you'll find it's the government that makes the casino do it.
That depends how you define "cheater". He's definitely an advantage player though.
IntenseHeat
Legend
Bronze Level
And in related news. It seems that Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa filed suit against Phil Ivey Tuesday. The suit claims that he cheated the casino out of $9.6 million dollars between April and October of 2012 by taking advantage of a manufacturing flaw in their card stock to win at baccarat. Sound a little bit familiar?
Here's link to the article.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/borgata-casino-lawsuit-gambler-cheated-won-96m-23296389
Here's link to the article.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/borgata-casino-lawsuit-gambler-cheated-won-96m-23296389
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SinkieCon
Enthusiast
Silver Level
This is a shame that he was cheating, and the method he used wasn't that difficult to spot so he said when I was reading the poker news article, it's also a shame that he did it again and now HE'S being sue'd lol, it's all daft really, why on earth cheat at something he's good at I don't understand ?
S3mper
Poker Not Checkers
Loyaler
Whoa! He was not cheating at poker or anything and he was edge sorting not cheating. Also link to him doing it again and being sued please?
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SinkieCon
Enthusiast
Silver Level
It might not be poker that he is cheating at but cheating is still cheating no matter what. I don't think he should get any money back
and here is the link
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2014/04/phil-ivey-sued-for-9-6-million-by-borgata-18014.htm
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LeinadW
Rising Star
Bronze Level
What if Phil Ivey edge sorted your deck at your house to cheat you. I could easily cheat someone by edge sorting in many games including poker. I would never do this because it would be cheating. Most decks of cards can be easily edge sorted. You would think you where cheated and want your money back. Phil Ivey cheated and should be charged.
S3mper
Poker Not Checkers
Loyaler
That makes no sense lol.. Phil Ivey never had access to the cards and never even touched them.
Besides edge sorting wouldn't really work in poker, and unless he marked the cards before the game it wouldn't work..
Even if he could that is why we burn the top card..
Edge sorting is a manufacturing error he didn't get access to the deck and mark them if anything the Casino should be suing the card manufacture instead of Phil Ivey..
S3mper
Poker Not Checkers
Loyaler
Also to say you wouldn't take advantage of an edge would be -EV IMO.. If we were playing poker and you spot a tell on me would you tell me that tell?
I'm not doubting your integrity but I don't believe that you can edge sort efficiently and profitably that you would.. I know if I could I would take advantage of the house.
I'd also count cards if I could..
I'm not doubting your integrity but I don't believe that you can edge sort efficiently and profitably that you would.. I know if I could I would take advantage of the house.
I'd also count cards if I could..
FastOne
Legend
Loyaler
I agree.
I already know the house has an edge on us players at Casino games so, from a given point of view, I could say the house is cheating, because I'm not getting a "fair" chance. So, if I find something that would give me an advantage against the house, wouldn't that be "fair" in a similar way?
I know there's the argument that the house is not forcing anyone to play and is dictating the rules, so if someone knows beforehand that is going against the odds and still wants to take the risk, is on him/her... but, for me, if I'd find an edge without "really cheating" against the house, I'd take it.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Actually, it'd be almost impossible to gain an advantage by edge sorting in poker because the cards are handled by the players, and are constantly being turned and rearranged. There's simply no way you could reliably arrange the deck and then keep it that way.
Edge sorting only works in games where there are very specific, carefully adhered to procedures for handling the cards.
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Bowman
Visionary
Silver Level
I notice bent cards or folded cards in the deck when playing in tournaments. Is that not an illegal move to fold the cards?
If it is not, well then I may as well start doing the same thing.
Pisses me off people try to cheat like that. Grow some balls.
If it is not, well then I may as well start doing the same thing.
Pisses me off people try to cheat like that. Grow some balls.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Folding or marking cards is definitely against the rules in poker - if you notice a marked card, alert the dealer immediately (assuming you're playing in a casino) and they should change the deck out straight away.
If you're not playing in a casino (say it's a home game or pub league or something) they may not have the resources to change decks all the time like that. But it doesn't change the fact that it's against the rules to mark the cards.
sam1chips
Visionary
Silver Level
It's my understanding that both the casino and the dealer of the game totally agreed to his requests...not much collusion if the other side agrees IMO