$5.5 NL HE MTT: JJ facing heavy multiway action in 3-bet pot

[fundiver199]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

5.5

Game Options

1. Deep Stacked

Currency

$

Hand happened early in a $5,5 "deep stack" on pokerstars. Only had 20 hands on each of the opponents, and over this small sample size BB was playing 32/26, while MP was playing 20/5. Do you stack off here with JJ for 123BB effective? And how about preflop?

PokerStars, $4.90 + $0.60 - Hold'em No Limit - 40/80 (10 ante) - 7 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/hand-converter.php

UTG: 11,536 (144 bb)
MP: 13,650 (171 bb)
MP+1 (Hero): 9,829 (123 bb)
CO: 9,942 (124 bb)
BU: 9,323 (117 bb)
SB: 9,630 (120 bb)
BB: 6,403 (80 bb)

Pre-Flop: (190) Hero is MP+1 with J♣ J♥
1 fold, MP raises to 164, Hero calls 164, 1 fold, BTN calls 164, 1 fold, BB 3-bets to 930, MP calls 766, Hero calls 766, 1 fold

Flop: (3,064) 2♠ 7♦ 3♦ (3 players)
BB bets 1,280, MP raises to 4,092, MP+1 (Hero)?

 

[Andyreas]

Interesting hand.

Preflop:
My first question here is why you didn't 3-bet yourself preflop with the jacks?

It's weird that neither you, nor MP 4-bet. Makes it kinda hard to them put on a range.

At least it lets me assume that MP doesn't have a monster like QQ+. Ofc he could be hiding it intentionally but I have rarely seen that in the micros.

Flop:
BBs bet look like a standard c-bet. MP bets full pot now. If my assumption was right and he hasn't QQ+, he can only have something like 99-TT, where you'd be ahead or he has 77 and hit a set now. I would doubt he has 66 or lower and I guess he wouldn't bet that high with any premium Ace.

So we'd be beat if he hid his monster or hit a set with 77.

Probably it would be safer to fold here since you still have 100 BBs left and I'm sure you might get an even better spot to stack off.

I sometimes decide those decisions also on my intention, so I could also see me jamming here but I've also lost some huge pots with those jacks already. They're kinda tricky. 🤣

 

[fundiver199]

My first question here is why you didn't 3-bet yourself preflop with the jacks?

Its close. As I understand it, JJ is actually supposed to be played mostly as a call against EP or MP opens, when you are deep. The obvious reason is, we dont want to stack off, and facing a 4-bet puts us in a kind of rough spot already. Having JJ in my calling range also allow me to sometimes call a squeeze, as I did here. But its close, and without being super methodical about it, I use a mixed strategy, meaning I sometimes call and sometimes 3-bet. And this time I selected to just call.

 

[makisaa]

With JJ and so big betting, I think the opponent has something bigger. This could be a strong couple like AK, AQ, or he had a pair, or he has a three. Fold here is a wise decision, it is a big risk to expect a J for a full house!

 

[300HPGOD]

Pre: I am on team 3 bet here pre. I read your post and I get the mixing but this deep I think we should be 3 betting here. I dont want to get squeezed although its not the end but you could have got squeezed being out of position which is not favorable, at least in this case we were in position. Being in position with JJ even against a tight player (after 20 anyway) should be a spot we envy. After the 3 bet by BB I totally agree to just flat here after MP flats. Depending on MP they could just flat here with AA and KK and I take out QQ.

Flop: These are the spots that I hate and I know I overfold. Two diamonds and low cards on the board. BB leads out 40% ish which is a little small for 2 diamonds but its not that small. Meaning I think they could easily have a big pocket pair here and bet this way especially if they have a diamond. MP's raise is interesting since are they overcalling pre flop with 22 ,33 or even 77 with us still to act pre behind them? I wouldnt think so, so I doubt this is a set. This feels like a big draw like AK or AQ of diamonds which could easily overcall the pre flop 3 bet. I think 1010 and 99 could get to this point and be in a tough spot (like we are) but I feel like they might just jam here if they are going to do anything. I know that doesnt make sense either but their raise they make is approaching half of the effective stack to them (what we have left) so why wouldnt they just bomb it then compared to getting called and then never folding after that no matter what? I guess you could say the same for a draw as well which makes this spot puzzling since MP is never folding without seeing all the cards come out after making this bet. We are behind AK or AQ of diamonds and of course crushing 1010. We are only slightly behind the big draws. Slight chance as mentioned they slowplayed pre with AA or KK. That is only MP, we still have BB to worry about who I dont think is light just because of their bet sizing on the flop but feel its close to normal sizing and they could have QQ+ since we dont know their 3 bet range yet due to 20 hands on them.

There are scenarios here where we could come up with that pot odds are right to jam (never calling here, jam or fold which I know you already know). I dont think we are ever getting it in as a fav unless MP does this with 1010 and BB just folds which I believe is rare. I think everyone sees this to the end as BB is rarely if ever folding an overpair so I dont like jamming it here so I fold. As I mentioned I probably overfold here in these spots but this is early and unless we know these players to be high variance players (and we dont know that here) then we should assume at least someone is near the top of their range here or at least is a fav drawing against us. I fold and say "this sucks" but I do fold and move on.

 

[fundiver199]

Thanks for the comments. I folded, but the other two guys went to showdown:

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[Andyreas]

Thanks for the comments. I folded, but the other two guys went to showdown:

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It's weird to me that some people call such huge bets just with two overcards. 😅

Looks like my read wasn't totally off this time. 😎

Hope you got your chips in nicely in another situation.

 

[fundiver199]

It's weird to me that some people call such huge bets just with two overcards. 😅

Yeah him calling it off with AQ high is kind of crazy. Its probably not even a C-bet in the first place, when he is out of position against two opponents. I mean... most likely at least one of us have a pair, and we are not going to fold it to a small bet on 732. Raising the C-bet with TT is also kind of wild in my opinion, since the preflop 3-bettor should have a lot of JJ+ in his range. But I guess, it was a sort of "protection raise", since TT is difficult to play on many turn cards. The problem with "protection raising" though is, that usually it get better hands to call and worse hands to fold. Here though it worked like a charm for him, so what do I know

Looks like my read wasn't totally off this time. 😎

It was pretty spot on. The issue in real time though was, I also had to worry about the preflop 3-bettor. So even when I am ahead of MP, like I was here, some percentage of the time the 3-bettor will snap both of us off with QQ+, and I will only be in good shape in the side pot.

Hope you got your chips in nicely in another situation.

Nah I did not cash in this tournaments. But still had a winning section due to a final table in an $11 PKO, so no complains

 

[Andyreas]

It was pretty spot on. The issue in real time though was, I also had to worry about the preflop 3-bettor. So even when I am ahead of MP, like I was here, some percentage of the time the 3-bettor will snap both of us off with QQ+, and I will only be in good shape in the side pot.

It's definitely more easy in a forum when you have some proper time to think rather than just a few seconds. 😅

And indeed, I totally agree on your fold. Could have also played out totally different with a higher PP.

But still had a winning section due to a final table in an $11 PKO, so no complains

Sounds like a wonderful addition to your BR. 🤗

 

[fundiver199]

Sounds like a wonderful addition to your BR. 🤗

Was only 7. place or something for $100+, but still nice to reach a final table and book a win

 

[eetenor]

Hand happened early in a $5,5 "deep stack" on PokerStars. Only had 20 hands on each of the opponents, and over this small sample size BB was playing 32/26, while MP was playing 20/5. Do you stack off here with JJ for 123BB effective? And how about preflop?

PokerStars, $4.90 + $0.60 - Hold'em No Limit - 40/80 (10 ante) - 7 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/hand-converter.php

UTG: 11,536 (144 bb)
MP: 13,650 (171 bb)
MP+1 (Hero): 9,829 (123 bb)
CO: 9,942 (124 bb)
BU: 9,323 (117 bb)
SB: 9,630 (120 bb)
BB: 6,403 (80 bb)

Pre-Flop: (190) Hero is MP+1 with J♣ J♥
1 fold, MP raises to 164, Hero calls 164, 1 fold, BTN calls 164, 1 fold, BB 3-bets to 930, MP calls 766, Hero calls 766, 1 fold

Flop: (3,064) 2♠ 7♦ 3♦ (3 players)
BB bets 1,280, MP raises to 4,092, MP+1 (Hero)?

Early in a game with this player pool vs MP's stats it would lead me to raise the JJ preflop for clarity-my thinking is they will define their hand on this cheap street rather than having to guess post flop if it is TT AQ etc or AA KK
As well in these game types villains behind call too often and JJ sucks multiway vs IP villains-think board coverage
We are also giving the BB a great squeeze spot with KQ for instance and over calling sucks as MP might call with QQ- HUD stats suggest AA KK
4 bets most often but if really tight they get scared with QQ- they want to see a clean flop
So if I call it is to set mine and as played this is a fold with no set
If this is a rebuy when MP flats pre flop we could 4bet vs the BB potential squeeze and MP potential flatting ranges

The issue on the flop is BB can have AA KK QQ AKdd KQdd as played and the MP can have a flush draw AdKd etc as played and 77 and QQ so even if we are ahead of both right now we are not crushing their ranges.

MP's stats suggest if they called pre with TT-88 they are much less frequently going to shove flop-not never but less likely

We can only ever make decisions on the data we have at hand that is why I like clarity preflop with a 3 bet

 

[eetenor]

Pre: I am on team 3 bet here pre. I read your post and I get the mixing but this deep I think we should be 3 betting here. I dont want to get squeezed although its not the end but you could have got squeezed being out of position which is not favorable, at least in this case we were in position. Being in position with JJ even against a tight player (after 20 anyway) should be a spot we envy. After the 3 bet by BB I totally agree to just flat here after MP flats. Depending on MP they could just flat here with AA and KK and I take out QQ.

Flop: These are the spots that I hate and I know I overfold. Two diamonds and low cards on the board. BB leads out 40% ish which is a little small for 2 diamonds but its not that small. Meaning I think they could easily have a big pocket pair here and bet this way especially if they have a diamond. MP's raise is interesting since are they overcalling pre flop with 22 ,33 or even 77 with us still to act pre behind them? I wouldnt think so, so I doubt this is a set. This feels like a big draw like AK or AQ of diamonds which could easily overcall the pre flop 3 bet. I think 1010 and 99 could get to this point and be in a tough spot (like we are) but I feel like they might just jam here if they are going to do anything. I know that doesnt make sense either but their raise they make is approaching half of the effective stack to them (what we have left) so why wouldnt they just bomb it then compared to getting called and then never folding after that no matter what? I guess you could say the same for a draw as well which makes this spot puzzling since MP is never folding without seeing all the cards come out after making this bet. We are behind AK or AQ of diamonds and of course crushing 1010. We are only slightly behind the big draws. Slight chance as mentioned they slowplayed pre with AA or KK. That is only MP, we still have BB to worry about who I dont think is light just because of their bet sizing on the flop but feel its close to normal sizing and they could have QQ+ since we dont know their 3 bet range yet due to 20 hands on them.

There are scenarios here where we could come up with that pot odds are right to jam (never calling here, jam or fold which I know you already know). I dont think we are ever getting it in as a fav unless MP does this with 1010 and BB just folds which I believe is rare. I think everyone sees this to the end as BB is rarely if ever folding an overpair so I dont like jamming it here so I fold. As I mentioned I probably overfold here in these spots but this is early and unless we know these players to be high variance players (and we dont know that here) then we should assume at least someone is near the top of their range here or at least is a fav drawing against us. I fold and say "this sucks" but I do fold and move on.

After the 3 bet by BB I totally agree to just flat here after MP flats. Depending on MP they could just flat here with AA and KK and I take out QQ.

VS these HUD stats and this buy-in size/ player pool-- MP flatting AA KK is much less common in these spots- they often want to protect their big hands and should in this assumed player pool- this deep- with 2 players IP- even for this 3 bet size.