$33 NL HE MTT: What was his card?

[Geo90]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

33

Currency

$

888Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 600/1,200 (150 ante) - 7 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 50,750 (42 bb)
MP: 44,772 (37 bb)
MP+1: 13,362 (11 bb)
CO: 162,712 (136 bb)
BU: 114,389 (95 bb)
SB (Hero): 33,161 (28 bb)
BB: 30,074 (25 bb)

Pre-Flop: (2,850) Hero is SB with 5♣ 4♣
1 fold, MP raises to 2,640, 1 fold, CO calls 2,640, 1 fold, Hero calls 2,040, BB calls 1,440

Flop: (11,610) 7♣ 3♦ 3♣ (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks, CO checks

Turn: (11,610) A♣ (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks, CO checks

River: (11,610) 8♦ (4 players)
Hero bets 6,462, BB folds, MP raises to 41,982 (all-in), CO folds, Hero calls 23,909 (all-in)


I won a 33 ticket and I managed to get into a party like this, very annoying, I'm actually uploading this for myself to learn from it

PF. at 26BB you could have folded to this raise

F: I get a pretty good flop but didn't want to bet because I would have been in a tough spot against a 3bet

T: came on the turn, I check-raised and figured someone would call

R: Here I was too confident in my head I had already won the hand, this bet was too big 2-3K would have been enough, A or an 8 would have called this call and I get an allin from nothing, but now what can you say allin for? If he would have had a flush or a pair of A he would have called on the turn, in a multiway pot I don't think he would have bluffed, what kind of hand do you think he had?

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
I dont like this call. You are not getting that much of a discount from SB, and you are going to be out of position against 2-3 players with a low SPR, which makes it really difficult to play a drawing hand well. You also set up a very profitable jam for BB with his 25 bigs and a ton of dead money in the pot. I would honestly not have any calling range here at all with your stack size and a field caller involved. If the hand is not good enough to rejam for 28 bigs with decent fold equity, I would just fold it. The bottom of my range would likely be JTs, as far as suited connectors go.

Flop
This is a great flop for you even though its paired, which always give a small risk, someone might have flopped a boat. I would not hate a donk lead here, because its a multiway pot, and if MP is any sort of player, he is not going to C-bet with just two overcards. If everyone missed, there is a decent chance, you can take it down by betting say 60-70% pot right out the gate.

Turn
Now you made your flush, and its time to get some value. Its pretty likely, someone could have an ace and not bet the flop, and they are not always going to bet it now either.

River
Definitely need to go for value now, and your sizing is fine. If you were bluffing, you would not want to go super small and price someone in to hero call you with pocket 5`s or some other very weak hand. However when you get raised, I think, its fair to say, your hand is only a bluff catcher. Maybe he could be value raising a hand like A8, but since he opened from MP, it should only be A8s, and there are only two combos of that.

You essentially have the nut low flush, so you lose to all other flushes and boats. His line looks most like a slowplayed or rivered boat. He should not have 83 or 73 for the same reason, he should not have A8o. But even just AA, 88, 77, 33 and A3s is still 12 combos. To simplify the math we can say, that his line is either a boat or a bluff. You are getting around 2:1, so with 12 value combos you need to find 6 bluff combos.

Since this is a bluff catching spot on the river, I would like to point the attention to this free training video, which I think is very cool. It introduce the concept of "the bluff box", which is basically a way of saying, how many combos the Villain arrive with on the river, that lack showdown value and therefore MIGTH bluff, if the Villain decide to do so rather than give up.

In this case the Villain opened preflop, and then both flop and turn got checked around. This mean, that his range on the river is still anything, he opened preflop and decided to not bet postflop. All his broadways missed and obviously cant call a river bet with another guy left to act behind, so these hands are in the bluff box now.

There are 16 combos of KQ, and only 1 of these is a flush. KJ another 16, only 1 is a flush. Even if he only bluff with those combos, that have Kc in them, thats your 6 bluff combos already. If he also bluff KxQc or KxJc, now there are 12 bluff combos. If he dont care about the flush blocker 30 combos. Plus QJs, QTs, JTs not of clubs. Another 9 potential bluffs. So the bluff box is so full, its literally bursting. Which mean, now we need to evaluate, weather the lid has come off.

And I would say, it might well have. This is a $33 MTT, and in general you see more bluffing in mid stack games compared to the micros. And even more importantly your line does not look super strong. You checked flop (naturally) but you also checked turn, and so did everyone else. So when you bet the river, it looks like a last minute attempt to steal the pot or some kind of thin value like maybe Ax bad kicker hoping to get a crying call from 99-KK. So I think, you need to close your eyes and make the call here, as you did. And if he did in fact show up with something, you lost to, then it just is, what it is.

Not that "guessing his hand" matter all that much, but if you lost, the hand, which for me would make the most sense, is pocket aces. I can definitely see a reg not C-betting AA multiway on a paired board, because its a bit of a way ahead way behind spot, and then on the turn he slowplay, because he has a boat and block top pair.

 

[primrose]

Preflop: If you were deepstacked, I would 3bet this. As is, fold. Don't call.

Flop: Good for your range, I would donk.

Turn: It's rarely correct to check when you hit your flush. That's what everyone and their grandmother does. it does not disguise your hand at all, and it doesn't get value. Bet the Turn.

River: Your sizing is fine. Idk what hand he had after the raise but it's stronger than yours. maybe a higher flush, maybe A3, maybe 88. I would not be shocked if he had AA, honestly. He could even have flopped quads. But it doesn't matter,

... oh no, I was going to give you props for folding here, but I misread the transcript. You called? Nooo 😭 Low stakes players don't bluff the River. It doesn't even matter if their line doesn't make sense. The line could make much less sense than it does here and I still wouldn't call.

 

[primrose]

If he would have had a flush or a pair of A he would have called on the turn

I'm assuming you mean he'd have bet the Turn? If so, no, because as you've just demonstrated yourself, people are infatuated with checking when they get there. He should have bet the Turn, but it's not surprising that he didn't.

 

[fundiver199]

Low stakes players don't bluff the River.

This is a mid stakes game though.

 

[primrose]

This is a mid stakes game though.

Yeah, and it's 888poker rather than GGPoker, so probably a stronger player base. I don't think that's enough though, this particular "yolo-allin at the River" line is just so nutted, especially in a 3way pot.

It's also not a good spot to bluff because people don't fold their small flushes. Like if Villain were a really strong player, he wouldn't try to bluff here.

 

[Geo90]

Preflop
I dont like this call. You are not getting that much of a discount from SB, and you are going to be out of position against 2-3 players with a low SPR, which makes it really difficult to play a drawing hand well. You also set up a very profitable jam for BB with his 25 bigs and a ton of dead money in the pot. I would honestly not have any calling range here at all with your stack size and a field caller involved. If the hand is not good enough to rejam for 28 bigs with decent fold equity, I would just fold it. The bottom of my range would likely be JTs, as far as suited connectors go.

Flop
This is a great flop for you even though its paired, which always give a small risk, someone might have flopped a boat. I would not hate a donk lead here, because its a multiway pot, and if MP is any sort of player, he is not going to C-bet with just two overcards. If everyone missed, there is a decent chance, you can take it down by betting say 60-70% pot right out the gate.

Turn
Now you made your flush, and its time to get some value. Its pretty likely, someone could have an ace and not bet the flop, and they are not always going to bet it now either.

River
Definitely need to go for value now, and your sizing is fine. If you were bluffing, you would not want to go super small and price someone in to hero call you with pocket 5`s or some other very weak hand. However when you get raised, I think, its fair to say, your hand is only a bluff catcher. Maybe he could be value raising a hand like A8, but since he opened from MP, it should only be A8s, and there are only two combos of that.

You essentially have the nut low flush, so you lose to all other flushes and boats. His line looks most like a slowplayed or rivered boat. He should not have 83 or 73 for the same reason, he should not have A8o. But even just AA, 88, 77, 33 and A3s is still 12 combos. To simplify the math we can say, that his line is either a boat or a bluff. You are getting around 2:1, so with 12 value combos you need to find 6 bluff combos.

Since this is a bluff catching spot on the river, I would like to point the attention to this free training video, which I think is very cool. It introduce the concept of "the bluff box", which is basically a way of saying, how many combos the Villain arrive with on the river, that lack showdown value and therefore MIGTH bluff, if the Villain decide to do so rather than give up.

In this case the Villain opened preflop, and then both flop and turn got checked around. This mean, that his range on the river is still anything, he opened preflop and decided to not bet postflop. All his broadways missed and obviously cant call a river bet with another guy left to act behind, so these hands are in the bluff box now.

There are 16 combos of KQ, and only 1 of these is a flush. KJ another 16, only 1 is a flush. Even if he only bluff with those combos, that have Kc in them, thats your 6 bluff combos already. If he also bluff KxQc or KxJc, now there are 12 bluff combos. If he dont care about the flush blocker 30 combos. Plus QJs, QTs, JTs not of clubs. Another 9 potential bluffs. So the bluff box is so full, its literally bursting. Which mean, now we need to evaluate, weather the lid has come off.

And I would say, it might well have. This is a $33 MTT, and in general you see more bluffing in mid stack games compared to the micros. And even more importantly your line does not look super strong. You checked flop (naturally) but you also checked turn, and so did everyone else. So when you bet the river, it looks like a last minute attempt to steal the pot or some kind of thin value like maybe Ax bad kicker hoping to get a crying call from 99-KK. So I think, you need to close your eyes and make the call here, as you did. And if he did in fact show up with something, you lost to, then it just is, what it is.

Not that "guessing his hand" matter all that much, but if you lost, the hand, which for me would make the most sense, is pocket aces. I can definitely see a reg not C-betting AA multiway on a paired board, because its a bit of a way ahead way behind spot, and then on the turn he slowplay, because he has a boat and block top pair.

You got it, he had a full house 77!

Thank you for this detailed analysis, it was a pleasure to read the way you described it, I'm watching the video, yesterday I won another 33$ ticket on 888 to play the Pko tournament tonight, hope to get at least a knockout

Yes preflop that was a mistake, what you described I often run into the BB going all in 20-30BB but understandable because there are already a lot of chips in the middle and a better player will go all in a bit wider, I won't limp under J10s next time

Yes my river call could have been a bluff as everyone checked 2 streets

 

[Geo90]

Preflop: If you were deepstacked, I would 3bet this. As is, fold. Don't call.

Flop: Good for your range, I would donk.

Turn: It's rarely correct to check when you hit your flush. That's what everyone and their grandmother does. it does not disguise your hand at all, and it doesn't get value. Bet the Turn.

River: Your sizing is fine. Idk what hand he had after the raise but it's stronger than yours. maybe a higher flush, maybe A3, maybe 88. I would not be shocked if he had AA, honestly. He could even have flopped quads. But it doesn't matter,

... oh no, I was going to give you props for folding here, but I misread the transcript. You called? Nooo 😭 Low stakes players don't bluff the River. It doesn't even matter if their line doesn't make sense. The line could make much less sense than it does here and I still wouldn't call.

Thank you also for your reply,

How much would you donk on a flop of 30-40%?

I was going to check raise on the turn but nobody called

Unfortunately I called, these big throws are not going yet, sometimes I manage to catch a two bluff and I am happy but rarely river bluff allinok I have made many mistakes, not thinking through the situations while playing is even harder
r

 

[Geo90]

Yeah, and it's 888poker rather than GGPoker, so probably a stronger player base. I don't think that's enough though, this particular "yolo-allin at the River" line is just so nutted, especially in a 3way pot.

It's also not a good spot to bluff because people don't fold their small flushes. Like if Villain were a really strong player, he wouldn't try to bluff here.

I don't think the players are stronger, I played GG not nearly as much, but I got so many slaps on the face from cooler that I didn't play 30AK and lost 28 of them in one day, GG was really good at the beginning and then I played too well and then nothing worked

 

[primrose]

How much would you donk on a flop of 30-40%?

Difficult question actually, both going small-ish and then betting the Turn or going big and trying to win right away have merit. But probably on the larger side because I don't want people to stick around with random broadways.

I also would give up on a non-club Ace even if I had wanted to double-barrel.

I was going to check raise on the turn but nobody called

Yeah, but, don't. People will be more willing to believe you have the flush if you check-raise vs. lead. (Also you keep saying "called" when I think you mean "bet" or "lead"; calling is when someone bets and you bet the same amount.)

 

[fundiver199]

You got it, he had a full house 77!

I can understand his check on the flop, because his hand dont need any protection, and its difficult for someone else to have hit anything on 733, when he have 77 himself. So this is almost a mandatory slowplay to allow someone else to catch up or bluff. Him checking the turn does seem very "trappy" though, since now is the time, he can get value from top pair and hands with a single club. Its almost a little fishy and makes me think, that maybe he is not a strong mid-stakes regular but someone, who also managed to satellite in.

As for the hand, whenever we find mistakes on the earlier streets, we typically should not worry to much about the river. If you had folded preflop, then obviously none of this would have happened, and avoiding tricky postflop spots like this is one of the reasons for having a jam-fold strategy from SB, when stacks are short enough for it. And if you bet flop or turn, then he would not have gotten to raise you on the river. Instead you would have jammed yourself for value and gotten the bad news, when he beat you into the pot.

 

[Geo90]

You got it, he had a full house 77!

Thank you for this detailed analysis, it was a pleasure to read the way you described it, I'm watching the video, yesterday I won another 33$ ticket on 888 to play the Pko tournament tonight, hope to get at least a knockout

Yes preflop that was a mistake, what you described I often run into the BB going all in 20-30BB but understandable because there are already a lot of chips in the middle and a better player will go all in a bit wider, I won't limp under J10s next time

Yes my river call could have been a bluff as everyone checked 2 streets

When you are preparing for a competition and this comes up

 

[Tadi]

You're absolutely out of luck.

 

[fundiver199]

I don't think that's enough though, this particular "yolo-allin at the River" line is just so nutted, especially in a 3way pot.

It was actually a 4-way pot to make matters even worse. And yeah I get, what you mean, and my instinctive thought, when I saw the river action, was also, that hero was beat. To be fair this might also be due to the way, the hand was framed, though.

It's also not a good spot to bluff because people don't fold their small flushes.

True but I would not put anyone on a flush, when both the flop and turn got checked through. So if I was to bluff here, which I am not saying, I would in real time, I would think, that I was against two severely capped ranges. I would think, the best hands, either opponent would ever show up with, would be top pair, unless they specifically backed into it with either A8 or 88.

 

[Geo90]

Difficult question actually, both going small-ish and then betting the Turn or going big and trying to win right away have merit. But probably on the larger side because I don't want people to stick around with random broadways.

I also would give up on a non-club Ace even if I had wanted to double-barrel.



Yeah, but, don't. People will be more willing to believe you have the flush if you check-raise vs. lead. (Also you keep saying "called" when I think you mean "bet" or "lead"; calling is when someone bets and you bet the same amount.)

I understand I try to play like this, thank you

Yes I want to write a bet, I use a translator and it always translates wrong and I forget to correct it, which is very annoying at this time,

 

[Geo90]

You're absolutely out of luck.

i'm not giving up hopefully next time i'll do better, but i've entered this tournament several times and i haven't won $1 yet, maybe there are more good players because of the bigger entries and that's why i can't get ahead :/

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/?hand=5aZTYSt

PF I don't think you could throw for 3bet, you had to call 2800 for 7330

 

[Geo90]

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I'm not opening a new thread, this was yesterday at the same $33 tournament,

PF raise is ok

F: small Cbet, lots of draws on this flop, 3bet shows strength, could be 2 pair J9,K9 or just K, could fold but no mistake to call I think

T: straights could have been completed with 8, I got a srohoo with top pair, should have folded here, must have shown power with K pair in the back or twice,

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Standard open.

Flop
You are 50BB deep and flopped top pair mediocre kicker on a very connected board, where a lot of straight and two pair are available for both players. You hand is definitely not good enough to go bet, bet, jam on most runouts, so you need to play for some pot control by checking either flop or turn. And I kind of prefer to check back the flop, because it takes away his option to check-raise you now, and allow you to call down turn and river on most runouts. Not saying the C-bet is terrible, but I think, checking should be your main play with this hand.

You did C-bet though, and you got raised, which completely suck, because now you have a bluff catcher with a weak draw, and you could be drawing dead already, if he has QT. It might seem like a trivial decision to call his raise, but you have to pay 2k to win 6.5k, so you need around 31% equity, and do you really have that?

Lets use Equilab to make some calculations. I think, his value range is QT, KJ, K9 and 99. J9 seem a little to weak to check-raise on this board, and KK and JJ 3-bet preflop. Then he of course have some bluffs. T8 is an OESD, but I think, its to weak to raise, unless its T8 of clubs. So I will only give him that as well as AcTc, Ac2c-Ac8c and Qc7c-Qc8c. Of course there are more possible flushdraws, but we need also to leave room for him to sometimes check-call with a draw. So I think, this is fair, and the result is, you have 28% equity.

This is not enough, and you dont have great implied odds either. Sometimes you will face a turn jam, which is difficult for you to call, and sometimes you will "get there" but still only chop with QT or lose to a flush. So I think, this is a fold, and this is the main reason to not bet the flop in the first place to avoid getting raised and blown off your equity.

Turn
This was a good card for you, since you picked up 4 more outs to a straight. But you are facing an overbet jam, and against the same range, I gave him on the flop, your equity only increased to 31%. So its still a fold, as it was already on the flop.

Conclusion
I think, both the flop and turn calls are long time losing plays, but for me the more important lesson is to not bet this hand on the flop in the first place, unless perhaps the opponent is a known fish, who will call far to much but rarely raise.

 

[primrose]

I would cbet the Flop and then fold to the raise.

One really important factor here is that you're playing against a BB range, which is pretty wide and shouldn't connect with this board super well, whereas your range does connect with the board well. This is a reason to cbet, which you did, but it's also a reason to be extremely afraid of the raise because he's raising a board that you will hit most of the time. He can't really expect to scare you off a good hand here. If this flop were T34 and he raises, then it's much more plausible to think he might be bluffing.

If instead this was a cold call from the BN or CO, then I would play this as a bluff catcher from the start (because they'll likely have hit something, and your hand is just not that strong) and just check the Flop. Even against a SB range I might check.

If you call Flop, fold the Turn.

 

[Geo90]

Preflop
Standard open.

Flop
You are 50BB deep and flopped top pair mediocre kicker on a very connected board, where a lot of straight and two pair are available for both players. You hand is definitely not good enough to go bet, bet, jam on most runouts, so you need to play for some pot control by checking either flop or turn. And I kind of prefer to check back the flop, because it takes away his option to check-raise you now, and allow you to call down turn and river on most runouts. Not saying the C-bet is terrible, but I think, checking should be your main play with this hand.

You did C-bet though, and you got raised, which completely suck, because now you have a bluff catcher with a weak draw, and you could be drawing dead already, if he has QT. It might seem like a trivial decision to call his raise, but you have to pay 2k to win 6.5k, so you need around 31% equity, and do you really have that?

Lets use Equilab to make some calculations. I think, his value range is QT, KJ, K9 and 99. J9 seem a little to weak to check-raise on this board, and KK and JJ 3-bet preflop. Then he of course have some bluffs. T8 is an OESD, but I think, its to weak to raise, unless its T8 of clubs. So I will only give him that as well as AcTc, Ac2c-Ac8c and Qc7c-Qc8c. Of course there are more possible flushdraws, but we need also to leave room for him to sometimes check-call with a draw. So I think, this is fair, and the result is, you have 28% equity.

This is not enough, and you dont have great implied odds either. Sometimes you will face a turn jam, which is difficult for you to call, and sometimes you will "get there" but still only chop with QT or lose to a flush. So I think, this is a fold, and this is the main reason to not bet the flop in the first place to avoid getting raised and blown off your equity.

Turn
This was a good card for you, since you picked up 4 more outs to a straight. But you are facing an overbet jam, and against the same range, I gave him on the flop, your equity only increased to 31%. So its still a fold, as it was already on the flop.

Conclusion
I think, both the flop and turn calls are long time losing plays, but for me the more important lesson is to not bet this hand on the flop in the first place, unless perhaps the opponent is a known fish, who will call far to much but rarely raise.

Cbet was really a mistake then, there really are so many draws out there, at first glance I thought I had a strong hand on the flop, but as you calculated not even close, I need to look at flop textures more because I'm going to automatically Cbet at some point, and I need to learn to fold top pair on a board like this because I'm really behind a lot of hands

Alright thanks for your help

 

[Geo90]

I would cbet the Flop and then fold to the raise.

One really important factor here is that you're playing against a BB range, which is pretty wide and shouldn't connect with this board super well, whereas your range does connect with the board well. This is a reason to cbet, which you did, but it's also a reason to be extremely afraid of the raise because he's raising a board that you will hit most of the time. He can't really expect to scare you off a good hand here. If this flop were T34 and he raises, then it's much more plausible to think he might be bluffing.

If instead this was a cold call from the BN or CO, then I would play this as a bluff catcher from the start (because they'll likely have hit something, and your hand is just not that strong) and just check the Flop. Even against a SB range I might check.

If you call Flop, fold the Turn.

Ok, thanks, I set the ranges wrong, when I should have folded I call, or vice versa. I bluffed two big games yesterday and folded my top pair, which turned out to be a bad decision.

Maybe I'll run through the older analyses today, I don't feel like playing lately

 

[fundiver199]

Cbet was really a mistake then

Not really mistake but perhaps not the most optimal line against a human opponent. But thats just my opinion. I actually checked the situation in GTO Wizard, and the solver basically bet its entire range on this board CO vs. BB. It then also call down with KT 50BB deep, which I guess, it has to, when it has so many weaker hands, that also bet the flop.

So you actually took a line close to GTO in this hand, which I guess mean, its not one to worry to much about. Its more a question of, can we actually do better than the solver, because we dont think, and unknown human opponent play the same way, the solver does. Like in this case the solver presumably have a lot of very low equity bluffs, when it raise the flop, which a human might not always find.

 

[primrose]

As always, I don't care what GTO does. I think fundiver tends to check more than I do on early streets, and I probably fold to aggression more on later streets, and the Flop is a marginal spot between checking and betting, so we can disagree. But calling down vs. folding to aggression isn't a marginal decision against the field. The average player just isn't going to barrel a weaker hand on this board. Understanding the typical poker player is much more important than learning GTO, imo.

 

[Geo90]

Not really mistake but perhaps not the most optimal line against a human opponent. But thats just my opinion. I actually checked the situation in GTO Wizard, and the solver basically bet its entire range on this board CO vs. BB. It then also call down with KT 50BB deep, which I guess, it has to, when it has so many weaker hands, that also bet the flop.

So you actually took a line close to GTO in this hand, which I guess mean, its not one to worry to much about. Its more a question of, can we actually do better than the solver, because we dont think, and unknown human opponent play the same way, the solver does. Like in this case the solver presumably have a lot of very low equity bluffs, when it raise the flop, which a human might not always find.

But micro bets will not bluff nearly as much as they should according to GTO, you mentioned this earlier

My game has been falling apart a bit lately anyway, or something has changed I've been a Platinum member for about 3 weeks now and I've entered every tournament on 888 and I've never failed to get into ITM, hopefully that changes this week

 

[Geo90]

As always, I don't care what GTO does. I think fundiver tends to check more than I do on early streets, and I probably fold to aggression more on later streets, and the Flop is a marginal spot between checking and betting, so we can disagree. But calling down vs. folding to aggression isn't a marginal decision against the field. The average player just isn't going to barrel a weaker hand on this board. Understanding the typical poker player is much more important than learning GTO, imo.

You're right about that, Understanding the typical poker player is much more important than learning GTO, imo, I have to keep that in mind and understand the micro level players and why they do what they do, I watch Iansimpson Twich videos,He is a very good player, but he doesn't play micro stakes, and he has moves that would be losing moves in micro stakes I think, there just won't be as much bluffing, there's not as well recorded play here, so the knowledge I see there I'm not sure I can always use in $1-2 tournaments