$2.10 NL HE MTT: Just validating my shoves were correct in 2 spots

[tzuriel]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

2.10

Game Options

1. Turbo

Currency

$

I think my instincts were correct here but wanted to make sure!

First hand is right after the bubble and 16/84 are left. I am in the CO with 22bb and 77. It folds around to me. Min cashing here is not very attractive and I want to win. Is the shove here correct? https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/?hand=6q3gkd1y

Hand two is right before the bubble and it folds around to me on the BTN (which is the SB in this hand) and the BB is short. I shove 30bb. Correct or not? https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/?hand=6q3gkcUs

Thanks!

 

[Andyreas]

With those shove spots it's not only your stack that counts but rather the effective stack, especially hand 2.

Here are my five cents:
Hand 1:
No, I wouldn't shove 77 with 22 bigs. Just make a standard open and go from there.

Hand 2:
Since the effective stack is less than 8 BBs, you can definitely jam QJo.

Hope that helps!

 

[tzuriel]

Am I misinterpreting ICMizer?

 

[tzuriel]

I looked this up on GTO Wiz and you are absolutely correct! I guess I don't understand how all these tools work. ICMizer is just telling me what's profitable but not that i should actually jam?

 

[tzuriel]

And if I am reading this correctly, if SB jams, 77 should call here?

I would have done this in game. What is the difference between shoving AI and calling a shove?

 

[fundiver199]

Hand 1 77
Open jamming 77 for 22BB is profitable, so it beats folding, but its not optimal. Its rare, that we open jam for more than 15BB, and the exception is mostly situations with very high ICM-pressure and often blind vs. blind. So 77 should min-raise and then make a decision if facing a 3-bet. GTO Wizard runs in chip EV, and here there are payjumps, so you want to use ICMizer to analyse the hand. I would imagine, that 77 is either the worst pair, that calls off facing a SB rejam, or the best pair that fold, so this decision will not matter to much either way.

Hand 2 QJ
This is a situation, where you are applying a lot of ICM-pressure to a short stack, and its not to much of a disaster, if you get called and lose. So it might be a jam any two situation or at least anything but complete junk. Meaning that even hands like T2s or 97o are also a jam, and QJo is certainly not one, we even need to think about. Its just a snap jam and then let BB make a decision for the rest of his chips. Nearly everyone will fold a ton here even fish.

 

[eetenor]

And if I am reading this correctly, if SB jams, 77 should call here?
View attachment 391637
I would have done this in game. What is the difference between shoving AI and calling a shove?

The solver uses best equity lines. Simplified Example solver shove 77 it nets $5 per hand over infinite hands--Solver raises and calls shoves it nets $6 per
solver chooses to raise. Why is easy? look at V charts when we shove vs when we raise the range for shoving for them is way wider than when they call our shove thus giving 77 more equity vs their all-in ranges.
You can get a good idea of this by clicking the drop down menu upper left above AA change strategy to strat +EV

When we study solvers we want to move past the first output by thinking of the why behind the solver output. We do that by looking at V response chart changes under different actions by us and EV of solver actions.

 

[eetenor]

I think my instincts were correct here but wanted to make sure!

First hand is right after the bubble and 16/84 are left. I am in the CO with 22bb and 77. It folds around to me. Min cashing here is not very attractive and I want to win. Is the shove here correct? https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/?hand=6q3gkd1y

Hand two is right before the bubble and it folds around to me on the BTN (which is the SB in this hand) and the BB is short. I shove 30bb. Correct or not? https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/?hand=6q3gkcUs

Thanks!

Hand 2 While shoving is Nash approved in exploit poker you can choose other actions.
1 We can raise to 2.3x vs passive or tight players- Why? these players over fold and under shove so we can fold to a shove and get their chips later
2 Vs V from above we can also flat as they will raise or jam only their best hands and we can over fold to that range--again expecting to win those chips later vs weak players. if we see a flop we can win by betting as a bluff or get extra value from hands that might fold to a shove.

We are also over folding if we have a strong edge on the rest of the table as well as just the BB.
The over fold does 2 things that are better for us in MTT than in chip ev spots.
1 Does not double up the player to our left
2 Protects our stack advantage vs the rest of the table and the MTT field as a whole- a very important factor in MTT strategy

 

[primrose]

Am I misinterpreting ICMizer?

Iiuc ICMIZER tells you whether shove is better than fold, but not whether shove is better than non-all-in raise. So you need to separately decide whether you're in shoveOrFold territory, and if the answer is yes, then you can use ICMIZER

 

[Rldetheflop]

I like these spots for analysis. The second I'm jamming for sure. The first is tricky to me. I don't like open shoving that many blinds but I also don't like the idea of having to play it post flop. Villain shouldn't be just flatting but I've seen it many times at this level. Players don't want to stack off with K8o but can't seem to let go especially at a discount. Are those tools usable on my android? I don't own a computer.

 

[SpanRmonka]

A point that has been touched upon, but I think is very important is your posistion in the MTT.

In hand 1 you are 16/84 players left. This is a very good posistion, and in my opinion regardless of how many BBs you have you should not be risking your tournament life with decent but middling hands that are flipping or dominated if called. You have a decent amount of time to find better spots than this than just open shoving 22bbs!

Theoretically you expect to get around 16th spot here, so risking everything for a few BBs is not 'playing to win' its just reckless. Appreciate you have likely made this play due to misunderstanding the solver.

For me you have to try and intuitively understand spots like this and not just take outputs as gospel! If the other players all had short stack then yeah, shove away, but you don't want to be flipping for 22 bbs from 16th place with 84 left ever!! You do that twice per tourney and you should expect to be out!!

 

[Fallenglory]

Hand 1: In this spot you are to deep to shove with 20BB+, I think a raise is better. I think with shoving people will either fold with worse or call with better. Maybe if you are 10-15 BB's it's fine.

Hand 2: I think it's fine if villain in BB is tight.

Also don't get to hung up on solvers/GTO, I think exploitive play works better at the micro limits.

 

[tzuriel]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I really appreciate it and I will learn from all of them!