tracker defense!!

[Mr Whatever]

Without going any further here, if u tell me the HUD overlays on pokertracker that takes the info from hand histories, compiles these stats and helps u make decisions by players tendencies right there while at the table -doesn’t give u an advantage over some1 who doesn’t use it (especially over beginners). . . then I don’t know about u ppl.



TPC TPC TPC . . .where do we begin. . .. lolololololol

Come on if ur gonna disagree with me, thats fine, I welcome it, no, no, I enjoy it because it gets me thinking more about the topic but these statements of urs. . . . . I don’t know.




Issue 1

U type: With a little research they would know about them. When you are interested in something don't you try to get more info on it? Stumble onto any poker forum and you'll find threads where people say he was a 30/10/1.5. Eventually they will figure out what those numbers mean and where they come from. Heck, at least once a month I see someone ask what those numbers mean here on CC.


A little research? How many of u ppl on this forum started playing online poker before getting a program like poker tracker? Did u play poker 1st and have the program running the very 1st time u played? That’s not the case with me. But I might be ignorant here.

How long was it before u ppl started playing poker then joined a poker forum so u could find out about programs like poker tracker? Did u go on a forum 1st or play poker 1st.


Issue 2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Whatever
but the way they are, these programs just give the user additional info on their opponents that a lot of the time wouldn’t normally get if the user just relied on normal hand histories.

And u directly type: ”All the data comes from normal hand histories and no place else.”


It’s the final product im interested with when the hand histories are added up and compiled. U can take a block of aluminum and reshape it into a car. Add some windows and wheels and ur basically good to go. that would get u from point a to point b much faster than a block of aluminum, right? But the car is made from the aluminum right? See my point? Same thing with taking the info from hand histories. It’s the same info, but its been manipulated with graphs and other info concerning individual players tendencies like certain hands they’ve lost with, how much they’ve lost in the that hand and session, in what position etc (ie the windows and tires) that gives u an advantage.




Issue 3:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Whatever
I wouldn’t call for an outright ban of them though lolol but I would like the poker sites to better advertise or at least tell players about them to equal the playing field.

Then u immediately type: “Look around some sites offer deals that give HEM away for free. Heck Full Tilt and I think stars now have schools that are free to players. I'm sure tracking software comes up in those lessons at some point. Do you expect the poker site to play your hands for you too?”

What major online poker site where most ppl play at and especially where new players flock to tell u about programs like poker tracker besides in the authorized/nonauthorized software page of their site? How many ppl signing up to these sites read that page or even the contract to begin with? lol
No no no, I disagree with u. when the actual poker site offers a program like pokertracker to their standing program then I could say “yeah everyone has it and the playing field is equal”. But its not like that and like I said earlier not every1 playing has a program like poker tracker or even knows about them. U have to go out of ur way to get the program because its an addon.

Issue 4:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Whatever
u can break down some1s game rather quickly in a shorter time and relatively shorter hands.

Again, just more proof you are someone bitching about something you haven't even taken the time to research. Most of the data takes time to converge. Which means you need a lot of hands on someone to get a good picture of what they are doing.



If im playing just 4 tables with the same person over just a few days, how long will do u think it take to use poker tracker to get stats on what pots they lost to certain players, their betting tendencies and what positions they are winning and losing money in and other important tendencies? come on, be serious lololollol.

If u think that u cant examine someone’s poker game faster with poker tracker than with a normal hand history. . . .loloolo I just don’t know lololol.



Issue 5:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Whatever
Those databases, especially those databases I don’t like. if the names of those players would be replaced with a generic name I could see some1 working on their game to improve their play and it wouldnt be such an advantage.

then u type:There wouldn't be a point to them then. And how is it an advantage when everyone can use it?

that’s my point ur using them to exploit particular people not as learning tools as so many say. u even admit there is an advantage of using a program like poker tracker than using just a normal hand history so ur just ranting. if u used generic names or whatever like in Poker Academy I could understand that these programs were being used as training tools. and if your opponents doesn’t have the software then theyre at a clear disadvantage to u, plain and simple.

If u had simply said something like: I only pay attention the options that help with my bankroll management like my session details and disregard the database. I woulda said ur probably the few that do and then yeah not much of an advantage there over ur competion. But u clearly say here that such programs are worthless without the database lololololo, so ur confirming ur using the addon program to exploit their weaknesses.

Overall I don’t care if u use em or not, Im gonna adjust my game accordingly when facing ppl ive been playing for awhile. But to say that it doesn’t give some1 an advantage over some1 that doesn’t use it. . . .lolol. look if it doesn’t give u an advantage, theres no need to use em right?

I don’t know ppl, all im seeing here are ur opinions and zippo reasons why it doesn’t give u an advantage like u claim. I know u ppl love these programs but come on, give me some reasons why these programs don’t give u an advantage since u ppl feel so strongly that they dont. I never said theyre bad or that u shouldn’t use em. im claiming they give u an advantage over the person that’s not using em.

Tpc nearly all ur reasoning is based on thinking that every1 is like u and uses programs like pokertracker. Joe average and nancy beginner aren’t using it or even know about it. And u have an advantage over them.

like i said, i wouldnt call for an outright ban on em lolol like the original poster wants lolol, but i wish the poker sites would inform players of such programs much better.

 

[WVHillbilly]

If you don't think one player should have an advantage over another maybe you should play bingo. This is poker where we use all legal means to take each others money.

 

[Poof]

Women use intuition to make decisions, which is why they are irrational and crazy. Oh snap, JK. Sort of.
.

OMG No you didn't!

 

[Mujahid]

Its no like the advantage of using poker trackers is only available to special people, anyone can use them. So why not use the advantage yourself?

If you cant beat them join them.

 

[fletchdad]

Originally Posted by TPC
Women use intuition to make decisions, which is why they are irrational and crazy. Oh snap, JK. Sort of.

OMG No you didn't!

was wunderin when one of the gals was gonna jump on this one........

"I dont care how many times somebody went 3bet, whatever that is lol"
^^^^^^^^this, a statement from OP, well, it just about explains everything?? Seriously OP, do as Belgo said, and worry about improving your game, not banning software. If you make statements like "I dont care how many times somebody went 3bet" AND "3bet, whatever that is", its obvious no one needs software to take your money........ (And who will lol then...)



"I have an absolutely perfect PHOTOGRAPHIC memory, and a PHD in Probability Statistics.

Should I also be banned?"

Yes, from playing online poker. You have intelligence, an obviously unfair advantage........ (ps, yes I did see the blue invisible footnote, but couldnt resist....)

 

[Mr Whatever]

Yes, wv, yes I agree. But the issue I had was whether programs like poker tracker give a user an advantage over some1 who doesn’t use it. I had numerous ppl here tell me, well ooh noooo theres no advantage of using such programs. That not right. They have a clear advantage over nonusers.


That’s a good point mujahid, they aren’t banned, but a lot of new ppl to poker just aren’t using them so theyre still at a disadvantage to ppl who do. These programs are addons, they don’t come with the original poker program.

I just wish the sites would tell ppl more about em, than just on their authorized and nonauthorized addon program pages.

Ooooh and id like ppl who use these program that say that these programs don’t give them an advantage over ppl who don’t use em to stop telling me they don’t help em in anyway. Confess!!! lololololo

Im done with this 1. u ppl can argue about it some more. . .lolol

gl

 

[Bovinity]

Here's something to think about...

Programs like PT and HEM being on the market actually make the playing field more level.

Think about it. If these programs didn't exist for anyone to get, very select few individuals would still find ways to compile hand histories into similiar programs of their own. Joe Casual would have absolutely zero shot at having any sort of help at all.

had numerous ppl here tell me, well ooh noooo theres no advantage of using such programs.

Who said that? I doubt anyone here would try to claim they offer no advantage at all. Maybe I missed it.

 

[Debi]

Yea - I think you have misunderstood that bit. Everyone knows it is an advantage to use them vs not using them. What we are saying is we don't have an unfair advantage since they are available for everyone to use.

 

[dmorris68]

How many times are we going to see these arguments? Didn't we just have somebody come on here last month on some sort of tirade about people claiming that trackers were of no advantage? And we all clearly said of course they're an advantage?

Like WV and everybody else is saying... they're legal. They're allowed. They're even tacitly endorsed by most sites, who work with the major tracker developers and even use them themselves when reviewing large numbers of hand histories (as they have noted during the big collusion investigations like the recent one with stox). They use your own hand histories, nothing else. Yes, you can argue that stuffing them with datamined HH's is unscrupulous, and I'd tend to agree. All the major sites forbid datamining and the use of datamined hands. I don't need datamined hands, my tracker is filled with hands that I've played.

To even suggest they should be banned because they provide an unfair advantage over beginners who don't use them is just plain... well... I'll just say silly so as not to insult anyone directly. Being a better poker player is an advantage over a beginner too, so should all better poker players be banned and just leave everything to the fish? Anything that gives you an edge, be it training, books, or software, and is legal and allowed by the sites, and most importantly, is available to anyone for a ridiculously modest cost, *should* be used by any competent poker player who intends to make money at this game.

I'll say it again: the people who bash trackers have never used them, fail to understand how they work, and/or are just plain clueless in general. There's just no other explanation I can think of for it.

 

[Debi]

^^^ great post dmorris.

 

[TPC]

OMG No you didn't!

Was waiting for you to say that

 

[Trimming1]

Still learning

Im with you man, but only cause I am too lazy to learn PTR myself.

I`m just starting to learn how to use pt3,and I have just down loaded it for the 60 day free trial period. I probobly will end up purchasing it.I know mt personal stats are crappy , and I`m trying to improve on a daily basis.I`m sure that in the long run it will be a great investment.:withstupi

 

[Trimming1]

Hud`s

Just wondering also, can someone enliten me as to how to run the hud on poker tracker three. I`m stumbling thru it,but have`t "got " it yet exactly how to run it. Thanks guys.:withstupi

 

[Poof]

Was waiting for you to say that

Lol I couldn't let you down. Besides, I know you didn't mean me because you know I am not irrational or crazy

 

[jolubman]

I will be petitioning the the poker providers as of this evening to try and get measures implemented that combat againts poker trackers as they provide an unfair advantage. A computer databank with every move of a player being taken into account at every given moment constitutes an unfair advantage in my opinion unless those moves are ones personal moves and that persons moves alone! This is because those without access to such programs are not able to compile and correspond data in the same mass and manner. Trackers do provide an advantage and are good for analysis of personal play but what is not being taken into account is the fact that poker IS NOT PERSONAL game. Thats solitaire if you are interested.

Grounds for the petition are going to be based on this unfair advantage.

In case that is not enough to gain the requested security measures against illegal and legal poker trackers I will also be adding these for evidentiary support.

1.) In accordance to (Full Tilt Terms&Conditions EULA,
4.2. You acknowledge that you have no right to have access to the Software in source code form or in unlocked coding or with comments.)

Poker Trackers cannot intake data for analysis or display information inside the FullTilt poker tables (I.E. HUD's) without violationg this clause due to the nature that programs transmit data in code and code interacts with code.

2.) (10.3. EXTERNAL PLAYER ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS (EPAs)

We prohibit the use of external player assistance programs (EPA programs) which are designed to provide an "unfair advantage" to players. EPA programs include computer software (other than the game client provided by us), and non-software-based databases or profiles (e.g., web sites and subscription services). In this clause 10.3. an "unfair advantage" is gained where a player accesses or compiles information on other players beyond that which the player has personally observed through the player's own game play.)

While acknowledging the unfair advantage gained with certain poker trackers that 'data mine' it leaves room for trackers using personal games. It is not taking into account that human nature does not allow for compilation and recollection of "every and all" moves through out the history of all hands they have played. While this is arguable; you must consider the fact that computer programs can calculate on an exponential factor faster than humans with more variabes on the same accord. Now, take a poker players tracker away and ask him how many times his opponent has 3bet from his position. Was he right? Odds are no yet with the track he knows exactly and by means of EXTERNAL PROGRAM ASSISTANCE he has more accurate information to make a decision with against somone that would most likely be innacurate at telling how many 3bets without the program. This proves unfair advantage.

It is a simple idea that I am proposing that shouldn't be too out of the way for the poker providers so I hope to see it implemented. The idea is that they provide us with an option to change our ingame nickname ONCE every 3 months to ensure that whatever trackers are present are a. not compiling huge histories on 1 nickname leading to complete domination of that player and b. to ensure that the history sharing issue is being countermeasured effectively.

I agree 100%. You can't use them live so why should you be able to use them on the Internet. They don't have them on the Merge network and data mining is not allowed on the Cake network.

 

[dmorris68]

I agree 100%. You can't use them live so why should you be able to use them on the Internet. They don't have them on the Merge network and data mining is not allowed on the Cake network.

*facepalm*

1. Merge allows trackers. HEM works on Merge all day long.
2. Data mining is not allowed on ANY site (at least not the significant US sites). Not just Cake. Nobody here is advocating data mining.
3. Cake allows trackers and HUDs for your own stats, they just go out of their way to make it next to impossible to track stats on other players. HEM worked closely with Cake to get HEM approved for use on their network. Other similar tools like Hold'em Indicator have always worked and been allowed at Cake.
4. Enough with the "not allowed in live" fallacious arguments. Completely different game, completely different set of circumstances. And yes, there are all sorts of ways to track live players. Notepads. Tape recorders. What works live doesn't work for internet, and vice-versa. Please people, stop with these nonsensical arguments.
5. For the umpteenth time: tracking software is allowed, to some degree or another, at virtually ALL sites. And I'd bet it will continue to be that way. It won't change. Get over it. Use it or put yourself at a disadvantage. It's really REALLY simple. If you don't think people can use clearly allowable tools to improve their advantage/edge, then you must also disagree with coaching, training sites, books, staking arrangements, and generally anything that improves your game or allows you to play more comfortably. Let's also include comfortable chairs. And air-conditioning. (See how silly that sounds? That's how silly these arguments against tracking software sound to most online players that have a clue about it).
6. Comments like these continue to prove my theorem that the vocal opposition are frankly not only "in the dark" when it comes to tracking software and how it works, but also poker site policies and other such details.

 

[TPC]

Damn Dmorris, quit making such valid points. You are going to kill this thread. I love listening to these guys whine! LOL.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I agree 100%. You can't use them live so why should you be able to use them on the Internet. They don't have them on the Merge network and data mining is not allowed on the Cake network.

Why would you need one anyways & why would you argue against them? They're not necessary for the "priv. tourney 'cash-added' circuit".
Besides, it'd probably be pretty embarassing to look at your own stats.
(folds BB to SB shove.... 99%!!! )

Tks for taking the time to educate the uneducated DMORRIS.. much appreciated doing such a fine job!

 

[AtiFCOD]

I think using poker tracker or holdem manager is ok (because the informations are from gameplay) but the websites like tableratings where you can see everything about your opponent - even concrete hands - is kinda unfair.

 

[pfb8888]

You have avoided answering the most important question asked -

Since everyone can use it if they choose to then how is it an unfair advantage?

Answer that question before going any further - and don't turn into a troll cause I have an itchy hammer.

Oh - and typing in all caps violates forum rules so don't do it again.

not everyone can use it ---i have enuf trouble running full tilt without lagging or getting booted off..still on dial up and have to move to get a faster connection...its impossible to run pt3

but aside from that poker should be about your skill and memory not a software aid

 

[Debi]

not everyone can use it ---i have enuf trouble running full tilt without lagging or getting booted off..still on dial up and have to move to get a faster connection...its impossible to run pt3

but aside from that poker should be about your skill and memory not a software aid

But that is just silly - the fact that you have a bad internet connection should not impact what is available to those who don't. I could write a book about all the disadvantages you might suffer - but none of them are unfair.

And as for your last line - well I am ADHD. I can not focus the same as those who are not can. So the rest of you have an advantage over me that I can do nothing about it. Should I just quit playing poker or should I continue to use my hud to help me retain some information that I would otherwise lose? Since I love playing poker and want to be as competitive as possible - shouldn't I use every legal edge I can find to help me improve my game?

Some people can't afford to pay a coach to help point things out to them that they may have missed. Should I stop paying for coaching because all players can not afford it?

If we can only rely on our own personal skill and memory then we have to do this:

• we can no longer use huds
• we can no longer pay for coaching
• we can no longer join training sites like DragtheBar
• we can no longer be members of poker forums where others might tell us things they learned that we did not learn
• we can not buy poker books to improve our skills

Wow - let's just shut down the entire poker industry.

 

[Bovinity]

not everyone can use it ---i have enuf trouble running full tilt without lagging or getting booted off..still on dial up and have to move to get a faster connection...its impossible to run pt3

Pretty soon someone will come along with an Atari 2600 and tell us how unfair our newfangled internets are.

I have to agree with whoever said that it's obvious that the protesters here have no idea how these programs actually work or what they do.

Also, the "can't use it in live play!" thing is so funny. How about this: you can't use physical tells online so you shouldn't be able to use them live! TAKE THAT, DANIEL!

 

[Debi]

Also, the "can't use it in live play!" thing is so funny. How about this: you can't use physical tells online so you shouldn't be able to use them live! TAKE THAT, DANIEL!

Yes the live thing cracks me up too lol. So many people multi-table live poker and really need a hud to help them out.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

not everyone can use it ---i have enuf trouble running full tilt without lagging or getting booted off..still on dial up and have to move to get a faster connection...its impossible to run pt3

but aside from that poker should be about your skill and memory not a software aid

Pt3 and HEM dont use your Internet connection. Its speed is irrelevant. Try to find another lame excuse for being a fish.

 

[joe steady]

Hey OP, try googling:
- idleminer
- table ninja
- sharkscope
That's what your up against, buddy. Adapt or lose.