OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Probably because he was playing in a private salon with a heap of cameras pointed at him - when the casino has video of you edge sorting it'd take a special sort of idiot to go into court claiming that you weren't edge sorting.
It would have been obvious to all and sundry that he was edge sorting. Obviously IANAL but I'm assuming Ivey's play here is to argue that as soon as the casino recognised he was edge sorting and decided to let him keep playing instead of shutting the game down, they should have been liable for paying him if he won. After all, they were certainly going to keep his money if he lost.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I believe the legal principle that applies here is "One Cannot Have One's Cake And Consume It Too Lest One Become A Fat Immoral Bastard".
It would have been obvious to all and sundry that he was edge sorting. Obviously IANAL but I'm assuming Ivey's play here is to argue that as soon as the casino recognised he was edge sorting and decided to let him keep playing instead of shutting the game down, they should have been liable for paying him if he won. After all, they were certainly going to keep his money if he lost.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I believe the legal principle that applies here is "One Cannot Have One's Cake And Consume It Too Lest One Become A Fat Immoral Bastard".
V
velliana
Rising Star
Bronze Level
What makes this so interesting is that if this was you or me on the streets it would not be nearly the same story. Due to the status of Ivy this is getting viewed and treated differently than it normally would, which makes me eagerly wait to see how it all sorts out.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Possibly because this has no effect on any money he may or may not make in appearance fees at poker events since he wasn't cheating at poker. It doesn't seem to have had any effect on his standing or image in the poker community either, because as you can see from this and other threads, the poker community is rooting for Ivey in this case.
And it won't have much effect on any action he may or may not get at casinos owned by other companies because all they need to do is NOT use defective decks of cards and they're safe.
Basically the worst that could happen to him was that they didn't pay him out his winnings, in which case he pursues legal action like he is now, and maybe this particular chain of casinos denies him action in the future. But that's about it.
N
nab76
Enthusiast
Silver Level
i dont think u understood what i was saying, or maybe i didn't say it right, what i was saying is there is no way this guy was cheating. why would he risk cheating and losing all his endorsements and such. i wasn't saying why would he play this game and risk losing. if he was caught in a casino cheating in any game, in any way he would lose a huge chunk if not all of that stuff. his contracts are almost guaranteed to have morality clauses.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
No, I understood. A couple of things:
1 - Read back over the rest of this thread and some of the news articles that have been linked from it. He's essentially admitted that he was edge sorting. The casino is certainly saying that they've got video that shows him and his companion doing it, so it'd be pretty stupid to deny it.
You can argue that edge sorting is advantage play, not cheating per se, but that's about it.
2 - Have you looked at what Ivey endorses lately? He doesn't represent Full Tilt any more. His major sponsor is his own site, Ivey Poker. He's hardly likely to fire himself as spokesperson. Plus this is poker, the world of glorified degenerates, not the clean-cut world of mainstream sports and corporate sponsors. Morality clauses in this world aren't the same as they are in the world of Pepsi and Wheaties.
1 - Read back over the rest of this thread and some of the news articles that have been linked from it. He's essentially admitted that he was edge sorting. The casino is certainly saying that they've got video that shows him and his companion doing it, so it'd be pretty stupid to deny it.
You can argue that edge sorting is advantage play, not cheating per se, but that's about it.
2 - Have you looked at what Ivey endorses lately? He doesn't represent Full Tilt any more. His major sponsor is his own site, Ivey Poker. He's hardly likely to fire himself as spokesperson. Plus this is poker, the world of glorified degenerates, not the clean-cut world of mainstream sports and corporate sponsors. Morality clauses in this world aren't the same as they are in the world of Pepsi and Wheaties.
N
nab76
Enthusiast
Silver Level
XXPXXP
Legend
Silver Level
just want to see how this case settled.
I would think that phil ivey found some tell by himself, so he gains some edge ....
but since casino did not prohibit or declare that this is a Do nots, so think phil ivey would have the right to take the prize back home.
I would think that phil ivey found some tell by himself, so he gains some edge ....
but since casino did not prohibit or declare that this is a Do nots, so think phil ivey would have the right to take the prize back home.
elfirb
Rising Star
Bronze Level
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Let's be honest here: Ivey was trying to screw the casino on this one. I agree absolutely, it's their own stupid fault for letting him do it, especially when it sounds like he was being so blatant about it, but he's not exactly the paragon of virtue in this case.
Also, don't make the mistake of thinking that casinos worship the ground Phil walks on in the same way that the poker playing public do. He'd "only" be a medium sized fish compared to some of the whales these places usually deal with. Plus he's unashamedly an advantage player, which won't make him especially popular with them. Sure they want his business and his money, and they'll look after him, but they wouldn't worship him as such.
A
ATruRube
Rock Star
Silver Level
The question for US poker players and venue providers, is what constitutes Cheating?
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Oh for crying out loud, it's all there in the news stories!
Ivey is admitting that he was edge sorting. The casino has it on camera. Whether you call it cheating or advantage playing, there's proof and the issue of what he did or didn't do isn't in question.
What's in question is whether they should pay him anyway, given that he was so blatant about it and they still let him keep playing.
rdm4k
Visionary
Silver Level
He simply took advantage from a leak in the game system. He absolutely dint created it. How the hell u can consider it cheating??
He's a gambler for a living, if during a session he's able to capt useful information to beat the game why the hell he shouldnt use that!! He could be a tell e could be a broken deck, he could be whatsoever.
He's already playing against casinos, in games where rake and rules let them be +++ev for the banker.
gg phil ivey, I wish u get paid
He's a gambler for a living, if during a session he's able to capt useful information to beat the game why the hell he shouldnt use that!! He could be a tell e could be a broken deck, he could be whatsoever.
He's already playing against casinos, in games where rake and rules let them be +++ev for the banker.
gg phil ivey, I wish u get paid
redcross
Rock Star
Silver Level
It's not Iveys fault those idiots are playing a deck that was cut wrong! Now the casino is saying the cards pattern was put on incorrectly which allows players to know what card based on the pattern on top. If he was marking the cards or bending them that's a different story. What is he suppossdd to do? Notice the cards are cut incorrectly and not pay attention? Train the dealers not the players. If Ivey lost $11 million could he not pay??