Phil Ivey wins $11 Million - Casino refuses to pay

OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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does sounds sorta dodgy!! and like get real Phil Ivey cheating!! no reason too! he is one of the best players around!! sounds like they just didnt have the funds to pay him!!

Erm... you do understand that he was playing punto banco, not poker, right? Unless you're angle shooting there's no such thing as a "best" player at punto banco because there's no skill involved.
 
UnNa7uRal

UnNa7uRal

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Phil is smart enough not to dump his reputation like that. I'm pretty sure the casino will pay him soon enough if there's no evidence of him cheating!
 
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jcdagenius

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pay ivey its not his fault cards were marked from what I hear. he has taken action I hope he wins.
 
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groggy44

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There's no way to cheat in that game. Unless the dealer was giving tells on where to put his money. Surely, they used house cards and a house shoe to prevent marked decks etc. It's a game of just luck.
As far as being a hit and runner? The man leaves with his money. Isn't that what we all want to do? How far deep do you really think a casino is going to go in the hole? $20mil $50mil, $250mil? At some point they will just ask you to leave regardless if you are cheating or not.
Pay Ivey his money
 
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RiverOfDreamz

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This is one of those situations that makes me lose confidence in the gambling economy as a whole.
 
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Chemist

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Legal Action: Give the money to the DOJ and get him to complete a claim form.
Oh wait that's for mere mortals not gods of poker.
 
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uarejelly

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ivey seems to have terrible bankroll management would not surprise me if he someday went broke I know he has millions now but still what about 20 years from now
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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This is one of those situations that makes me lose confidence in the gambling economy as a whole.

Not really sure why - it's pretty much been established that it's not a case of the casino not having the money. They were just trying to angle shoot each other: Ivey (through his companion) was apparently advantage playing, and the casino was trying to freeroll him in the hopes that he used his system and still lost. That's Gambling Economics 101 on both sides: find a good spot and get your money in :p

ivey seems to have terrible bankroll management would not surprise me if he someday went broke I know he has millions now but still what about 20 years from now

Anything's possible I guess. I think it's fair to say that Ivey would never be short of a stake for playing poker if he ever did go busto though...
 
Matt Vaughan

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Anything's possible I guess. I think it's fair to say that Ivey would never be short of a stake for playing poker if he ever did go busto though...

Bingo ^
 
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RiverOfDreamz

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OZ - because I wouldn't expect a reputable casino to be angle shooting, or freerolling a player.
 
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Phil Ivey has talents simple as that, your talking about a guy who can straddle 3 hands in a high stakes cash game pic up ace king twice and pocket 10's the 3rd time and win all three hands,

we've all seen him 4/5 bet air getting a player to lay down a hand pretty much pot committed as well

the guy has some kind of 6th sense and when his instinct's are in full flow he's unstoppable at any form of gambling
 
ChipEaterMan

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Sounds like bs to me. The casino needs to cowboy up and pay him and cut the crap. How many others have lost at least that much and more? I bet the casino doesn't do an investigation then.... Sounds like the casino thinks they had a right to that money since the odds are in their favor. I hope they have to pay back every penny and more for being so stupid about actually losing for once!
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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OZ - because I wouldn't expect a reputable casino to be angle shooting, or freerolling a player.

*shrugs*

Doesn't come as any real surprise to me.

Keep in mind that this isn't an everyday run of the mill situation - the fact that this happened doesn't mean the same casino will also try to angle shoot you next time you sit down to play $10 blackjack or whatever.

If Ivey was indeed trying to advantage play them (and that seems all but confirmed at this stage) the casino would have recognised it as soon as he started asking for specific cards to be turned. Moreover, Ivey would have known that the casino would know - he was playing for high stakes in a private salon with multiple cameras watching him, there was no way it was going to go unnoticed. And since they didn't stop the game immediately after he started turning cards, he would have known that the casino going to the tapes afterwards, accusing him of angle shooting and refusing to pay him was a likely outcome.

They might have been dealing punto banco at the table, but it seems what Ivey was really playing that night was a high stakes game of chicken.

The more I think about it too, the more I wonder if maybe it really was Ivey that leaked the story in the first place last year? He now seems to be the one that has the most to gain from the story going public...

cotta777 said:
the guy has some kind of 6th sense and when his instinct's are in full flow he's unstoppable at any form of gambling

Did you read the bit where the casino says he was edge sorting, and it wasn't even Ivey that was doing the work? It wasn't sixth sense, it was effectively card marking, and his "companion" seems to have been the real brains behind this streak.

ChipEaterMan said:
Sounds like bs to me. The casino needs to cowboy up and pay him and cut the crap. How many others have lost at least that much and more? I bet the casino doesn't do an investigation then....

Let's try to put this into poker terms: you're playing heads up poker against someone, and at the end of the game you find out that the other player has marked the deck so he can tell where all the aces are. He's taken a bunch of your money as a result. Are you going to happily let him walk away with your money, and even pay him a little extra for being smarter than you for noticing?

That's not a hundred per cent accurate analogy (in Ivey's case, it seems likely both sides were playing a little dirty) but you get the picture - this isn't just an ordinary game that the casino is refusing to pay out on.

Before anyone gets the wrong idea BTW, my personal view is that the casino should pay him. IMO the minute they recognised what he was doing they should have either cut him off or decided to accept the consequences of letting him to continue to play if he went on to win. That said, the way all of this has gone doesn't surprise me either...
 
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Sounds like a bunch of BS to me. If you thought he was cheating why not say something when they first suspected it or ask him to leave the table and go from there. Sounds like the casino has sour grapes.
 
ChipEaterMan

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He apparently has basically zero respect for money, in that it means nothing to him at all.
 
imafish

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Yeah, he is completely detached from money. That's what makes him a great player.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Sounds like a bunch of BS to me. If you thought he was cheating why not say something when they first suspected it or ask him to leave the table and go from there. Sounds like the casino has sour grapes.

You're right, that bit doesn't make sense. Seems likely the casino thought they were on a freeroll though since the system Ivey was using didn't guarantee he would win, it just stacked the odds more in his favour. It was still possible for him to lose a large sum of money though, which I assume is why the casino let him keep playing.
 
IntenseHeat

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Okay, here's my thing. The cards. Apparently there was some sort of defect in the cards (the way the design on the back aligned to the edge, blah blah blah). Why the hell would the casino still have these cards in use. If outsiders were aware of this flaw, it seems certain that the casino should have been well aware of it. It seems like they would have done whatever it took to get rid of those cards, even if they had to switch to another manufacturer. But there is really so much more about this situation and the way that the casino handled it that I find questionable.
 
-Phil Ivey27

-Phil Ivey27

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either they can prove it's an inside job or I'm getting paid $$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
OzExorcist

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Okay, here's my thing. The cards. Apparently there was some sort of defect in the cards (the way the design on the back aligned to the edge, blah blah blah). Why the hell would the casino still have these cards in use. If outsiders were aware of this flaw, it seems certain that the casino should have been well aware of it. It seems like they would have done whatever it took to get rid of those cards, even if they had to switch to another manufacturer. But there is really so much more about this situation and the way that the casino handled it that I find questionable.

I guess because 99.9% of punters are too stupid to either notice, or to be able to use the information to their advantage even if they did. Note that we're talking about Phil Ivey, a pretty bloody smart guy, and even he could only pull this off with the help of a specialist.

Plus the casino obviously figured it's got the "you were cheating, we won't pay you" position to fall back on, like it did in this case.

Keep in mind we're likely not just talking about one deck of cards here, but likely thousands and thousands of decks of cards that came in the same batch from the same manufacturer that they'd have to bin and start fresh with. Yes, I expect the manufacturer probably got a bollocking over this but in the meantime you've got all these cards, you need cards to run a casino and most people aren't going to notice the defect. Consider all that and you can see how something like this happens...
 
X

xCipx

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Seems like a bunch of BS to me. I mean how did we all first hear the name Phil Ivey? Was it because he won the lottery? no its because he is a good poker player. Good poker players usually find a way to win money after all its kind of there job. Untill i hear ne thing that makes it look like he cheated i would say innocent. its not like some nobody went there and cleaned house
 
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xXShannonAXx

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quick to take the money but having to pay it back oh dear he must be cheating or something
 
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