$5 NL HE MTT: 99

[Geo90]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

5

Game Options

1. Bounty

Currency

$

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/?hand=aa15Tkhv

How would you have played here?

Preflop: I didn't want to limp the raise I think is standard,
I think the raise is standard, the allin would be too aggressive with 20BB


Flop: opponent raised big, but what kind of cards would he do that with? If he limped 55 or 77 away, I don't think he'd raise that big on a set, QJ or Q10 if he limped it was too big a raise, I should have allin back here, it was a big call, I was already committed to the pot, and there are a lot of cards that could come in that I don't like

Turn: Allin, interesting again

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
I think, this is perfect. You are a bit to deep to jam over a single limp, and your hand is way to strong to limp behind.

Flop
Donk bets are always interesting, and in this particular spot he could of course have a Q. Even so I think, its to tight to fold to a single bet, although it was a large one. But he could maybe sometimes be donking with a worse one pair hand or a draw. If you jam, you mostly get better hands to call and worse hands to fold, so I would also call and look to play a turn.

Turn
Another overcard is of course not great, but we also have to ask, what he is firing with again on this card, that change the texture? Like if he had QJ or QT would he pile it in, now that its no longer top pair? Or would he donk out with complete air like KJ or KT on the flop? I feel, he is representing a somewhat more polarized range now like basically two pair or sets for value.

Fish do sometimes tilt, when you raise their limps, and then you might see them do something like this with completely random hands like A5 or A7. So I would not hate a call here, but I dont think, its a mistake either to fold and live to fight another day. At the end of the day you only have third pair now, and if you are behind, you basically have two outs.

 

[Geo90]

Thanks for your answer, it always helps if you see things from a different perspective and it's always good to have a little bit of hindsight, now I'm running badly so I try to look back at several races and look for my mistakes!

I could have attacked here at the flop, but after that I only had a third pair and I still had enough pocket cards left to play.

 

[primrose]

Preflop: You have only 20BB? Jam. It's the perfect hand for it.

Flop: Ugh, this is more than half-pot, and given his stack and the action before, that's a really strong bet. It's gross but he's not going away, you should fold now rather than later.

Turn: Fold.

 

[Geo90]

I also like the preflop jam, I've seen in many videos that medium handed 20-25BB pairs also aggressively pop in preflop for a raise or limp.

Thanks for your reply too!

Preflop: Csak 20 BB-d van? Jam. Ez a tökéletes kéz hozzá.

Flop: Pfuj, ez több mint a pot fele, és a zsetonkészletét és az előző akciót tekintve ez egy nagyon erős tét. Undorító, de nem fog elmenni, inkább most dobj, mint később.

Fordulás: Hajtás.

I also like the preflop jam, I've seen in many videos that medium handed 20-25BB pairs also aggressively pop in preflop for a raise or limp.

Thanks for your reply too!

 

[fundiver199]

Flop: Ugh, this is more than half-pot, and given his stack and the action before, that's a really strong bet. It's gross but he's not going away, you should fold now rather than later.

I tend to view donk bets as being weak more often than strong. Its a fairly dry board, so if the guy actually flopped top pair, why would he not check to Hero and let Hero do his C-bet thing? Its a bit like a small dog barking loud to sound dangerous, but in reality its just scared and want you to go away. So I tend to not give a ton of respect to donk bets. It is still a gross spot though, because we have an underpair to the board, so we would really prefer to not play a massive pot, and he is taking that opportunity away from us.

I did not go into this, because it does not seem like OP is using a HUD. But this is actually a spot, where I would open up the HUD and look at the donk bet stats. Its not a stat, I have displayed on the table, but you can click on the HUD of a particular player and then see all the other stats. And if this Villain was a habitual donk better, like if it was 50% or higher, then I think, its fine to just jam the flop, because then it obviously cant always be top pair or better. But if its like 1 out of 11, maybe we can give him credit and just fold right there on the flop.

 

[primrose]

I tend to view donk bets as being weak more often than strong. Its a fairly dry board, so if the guy actually flopped top pair, why would he not check to Hero and let Hero do his C-bet thing? Its a bit like a small dog barking loud to sound dangerous, but in reality its just scared and want you to go away. So I tend to not give a ton of respect to donk bets.

I think small donk bets are weak and large donk bets are strong. I don't know why people are giving away their hand strength with their sizing, but they do. This is a two third pot size, which is already large-ish, but I'm treating it as a more of a 100% pot size because of his stack. A 100% pot donk bet is almost always strong, imo, at least live. I think if you're ignoring sizing tells, you're missing out on a lot of valuable information.

I don't think a large donk % would change this -- not unless we have more detailed data on sizing.

 

[enno]

My question is - what would your Cbet be on the flop (if you had the chance)? Would half pot or 4 BB’s be reasonable?
Since villain bet two-thirds pot or 5.5 BB’s (donk or not-he could have you beat), if you call, you will have only 12 BB’s left. Food for thought 🤔🤔🤔

 

[Geo90]

A donk beteket gyakrabban tartom gyengének, mint erősnek. Elég száraz az asztal, szóval ha a srácnak tényleg top párja van a flopnál, miért nem passzol Hero előtt, és hagyja, hogy Hero tegye a C-betjét? Ez egy kicsit olyan, mint egy kiskutya, aki hangosan ugat, hogy veszélyesnek tűnjön, de valójában csak megijedt, és azt akarja, hogy tűnj el. Szóval nem igazán tisztelem a donk beteket. De még mindig undorító helyzet, mert egy underpairünk van az asztalon, szóval jobban szeretnénk, ha nem játszanánk egy hatalmas potot, és ő elveszi előlünk ezt a lehetőséget.

Ebbe nem mentem bele, mert úgy tűnik, az eredeti posztoló nem használ HUD-ot. De ez valójában egy olyan helyzet, ahol én megnyitnám a HUD-ot és megnézném a donk bet statisztikákat. Ez nem egy statisztika, amit az asztalon jelenítettem meg, de rákattinthatsz egy adott játékos HUD-jára, és akkor láthatod az összes többi statisztikát. És ha ez a Villain egy megszokott donk bet volt, mondjuk 50% vagy magasabb volt, akkor szerintem nyugodtan all-in lehet menni a flopnál, mert akkor nyilvánvalóan nem lehet mindig top pár vagy jobb. De ha olyan, mint 1/11, akkor talán elismerést adhatunk neki, és egyszerűen dobhatunk ott helyben a flopnál.

I plan to buy a Poker Tracker 4 in the future, but I think my knowledge is so small that the statistics would just confuse me. I am trying to develop my own game and rely on the pre-loaded HUD where VPIP, PFR, 3Bet, you can see.

I always find myself in a difficult position against donkbet

 

[Geo90]

A kérdésem a következő: mekkora lenne a folytatólagos téted a flopnál (ha lenne rá lehetőséged)? A fél pot vagy a 4 nagy zseton reális lenne?
Mivel a gonosztevő a pot kétharmadát vagy 5,5 BB-t emel (akár szamár, akár nem, legyőzhet), ha megadod, csak 12 BB-d marad. Elgondolkodtató 🤔🤔🤔

If you ask me, on this dry calf, where there is no color or line drawing, I would put a little cbet, around 2-3 BB.

Yeah, I should have given it on the flop, if I already gave 5.5BB, maybe I should have gone all-in there.

There's 12BB left and I'm capable of one more push

 

[primrose]

I always find myself in a difficult position against donkbet

I used to think like this, but I've come around to the opposite: people are doing you a huge favor by donking.

Donk small? They're trying to "find out where they're at" or "set their own price". They almost always have something, but it's almost never strong. Play accordingly. If you are strong, value bet thin. If you're weak, either give up or, if the situation calls for it, blast them off their hand.

Donk large? They have it. They're telegraphing that they have it. They're offering you a way out.

It would be so much harder if they just didn't donk because then you have no idea what they have, and if they have the nuts, you might value bet into them three times and then have to call a River raise.

Now granted, this pattern won't be as robust online because people are better, but it will still hold. Just pay attention to sizing in the future and keep track of how often the rule works. (Large is roughly everything above half pot.)

 

[fundiver199]

I think small donk bets are weak and large donk bets are strong. I don't know why people are giving away their hand strength with their sizing, but they do. This is a two third pot size, which is already large-ish, but I'm treating it as a more of a 100% pot size because of his stack. A 100% pot donk bet is almost always strong, imo, at least live. I think if you're ignoring sizing tells, you're missing out on a lot of valuable information.

I agree as far as small donk bets almost always being weak. Some marginal hand "trying to find out where it is" or a draw trying to set its own price and see the next card cheaply. But I dont agree, that lange donk bets are always strong. Maybe tendencies are different live and online, but online it is my experience that large donk bets are sometimes strong but quite often bluffy. I even shared some examples of that recently.

This one was half pot, which is not super large but definitely not small either.

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This one was full pot.

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[primrose]

This one was half pot, which is not super large but definitely not small either.

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This one was full pot.

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As I said in the above post, my rule of thumb is "above half pot = strong", meaning exactly half pot is still weak. Which is pretty important online since a lot of people will donk exactly half pot.

... but more importantly, I believe your % of making the right call in the hands you posted recently is currently at 100%, so I can't really treat them as a representative sample.

 

[fundiver199]

As I said in the above post, my rule of thumb is "above half pot = strong", meaning exactly half pot is still weak. Which is pretty important online since a lot of people will donk exactly half pot.

I dont think, half pot is a "weak" bet online, but its not strong either. Its just sort of middle of the road, and for a flop bet actually a little above average, since most players have jumped on the modern "downbetting" trend, which comes from solvers. But I do get your point, that its not strong and screaming "give me max value" as one might imagine the thought process of the classic donk (bad player) hitting the flop hard and not understanding the best way to get paid.

... but more importantly, I believe your % of making the right call in the hands you posted recently is currently at 100%, so I can't really treat them as a representative sample.

Fair point, and obviously two hands can never be a representative sample. In the AA hand its not really about "making the right call" though, since I beat the most common value, which is top pair. But I would probably not have picked it, if he had top pair, because then it would just be a standard "overpair stack top pair" hand, which is not very interesting.

Returning to the 99 hand shared here, my feeling when he donk for this large sizing is definitely, that there is a decent chance, this is top pair. So in real time it would be a spot, where I would reluctantly call, but I would not love it. Whats interesting for me about this hand is, that he jam the turn, even though its a K, because for me that does not look like something, hands like QJ or QT would do, when they are now downgraded to second pair.

So either he was bluffing a decent amount of the flop with K high hands, that now got there, and if he is able to do that, then maybe he is also able to fire the second barrel on a scare card with his A high or other air. Or his value range is now only two pair and sets, which mean, he dont need to have all that many bluffs for us to make a profitable call. But of course its kind of a theoretic discussion, since OP folded, so there is no reveal.

 

[Geo90]

Régebben én is így gondoltam, de azóta az ellenkezőjére jutottam: az emberek hatalmas szívességet tesznek neked azzal, hogy seggbe bújnak.

Kicsi a tét? Megpróbálják "kideríteni, hol tartanak", vagy "meghatározni a saját áraikat". Szinte mindig van valamijük, de az szinte soha nem erős. Játssz ennek megfelelően. Ha erős vagy, tegyél értéknövelő tétet vékonyan. Ha gyenge vagy, vagy add fel, vagy ha a helyzet úgy kívánja, üsd le őket a lapjaikról.

Nagy segg? Megvan nekik. Azt üzengetik, hogy megvan. Kiutat kínálnak.

Sokkal nehezebb lenne, ha egyszerűen nem nyelnének le, mert akkor fogalmad sincs, mijük van, és ha náluk van a legjobb lap, akkor akár háromszor is értéknövelően emelhetnél rájuk, majd meg kellene adnod egy river emelést.

Persze ez a minta online nem lesz olyan robusztus, mert az emberek jobbak, de ettől függetlenül érvényesülni fog. Csak figyelj a méretezésre a jövőben, és kövesd nyomon, hogy milyen gyakran működik a szabály. (A nagy nagyjából minden, ami a pot fele felett van.)

3betelni húzó lapokkal, második párokkal a kis donkbetnél?

Valóban nehezebb lenne nekem, ha lassú palyt játszanának, és egy nagy donk tétet tennék a riverre.

Oké, megpróbálok ezekről is jegyzeteket készíteni, másnap megpróbálom újrapörgetni a versenyek nagy részét és jegyzeteket készíteni.

Régebben én is így gondoltam, de azóta az ellenkezőjére jutottam: az emberek hatalmas szívességet tesznek neked azzal, hogy seggbe bújnak.

Kicsi a tét? Megpróbálják "kideríteni, hol tartanak", vagy "meghatározni a saját áraikat". Szinte mindig van valamijük, de az szinte soha nem erős. Játssz ennek megfelelően. Ha erős vagy, tegyél értéknövelő tétet vékonyan. Ha gyenge vagy, vagy add fel, vagy ha a helyzet úgy kívánja, üsd le őket a lapjaikról.

Nagy segg? Megvan nekik. Azt üzengetik, hogy megvan. Kiutat kínálnak.

Sokkal nehezebb lenne, ha egyszerűen nem nyelnének le, mert akkor fogalmad sincs, mijük van, és ha náluk van a legjobb lap, akkor akár háromszor is értéknövelően emelhetnél rájuk, majd meg kellene adnod egy river emelést.

Persze ez a minta online nem lesz olyan robusztus, mert az emberek jobbak, de ettől függetlenül érvényesülni fog. Csak figyelj a méretezésre a jövőben, és kövesd nyomon, hogy milyen gyakran működik a szabály. (A nagy nagyjából minden, ami a pot fele felett van.)

 

[Jiliac]

This is a fascinating hand, and I really like the depth of discussion so far. To add my two cents:


Preflop, raising to 3bb is a bit on the small side, especially facing a limp. With just 20bb effective and position on the button, I’d prefer a raise to 3.5–4bb. That puts more pressure on the limper and gives you a clearer path to isolate or take it down preflop. That said, the small raise does keep the pot manageable and might induce wider calls, which isn’t terrible with 99.


The flop is really where it gets interesting. The 5-Q-7 rainbow isn’t particularly scary, but getting donked into for more than half the pot immediately puts you in a tough spot. As others pointed out, donk bets—especially online—can lean weak, but sizing is crucial. This one isn’t small; it’s 5.5bb into ~8.5, which feels strong at a glance. Still, it’s a dry board, and you’re ahead of a ton of possible holdings like 66, 88, A5s, 76s, even some Qx that might play passively preflop. So I think calling is still the best line here. Raising folds out worse hands and gets you in trouble versus better ones.


Turn K is indeed a problem. It smashes a lot of semi-bluffy flop donks like KJ, KT, and even KQ, which was already ahead. Now you’re not even ahead of some of the bluffs you hoped for. The sizing of the turn bet—12.5bb into 19—does feel like a shove setup, which makes it even more likely you’re crushed or drawing thin. With only 12bb behind, this spot really sucks, but I think folding is the right decision unless you have a very solid read that villain over-bluffs or takes weird lines with weak hands. Without that, you’re just praying to hit one of two outs against a likely strong hand.

I agree with the take that large donk bets (especially on the flop) tend to polarize ranges more than just scream strength. But once you get to the turn and see continued aggression on an overcard, that’s where the hand often crystallizes into a value-heavy line unless villain is capable of firing multi-barrel bluffs out of position after limping. Not impossible, but rare—especially at lower or mid stakes.

If anything, the real decision point in this hand is the flop. If you think villain is very strong already, folding there saves you some chips. If you think he’s wide and weak, then calling is fine—but it commits you to some very tough turn decisions, as we saw.

And on the broader note about donk bets: I like what was said above about sizing being a tell. Small ones feel like blockers, big ones feel like commitment. That doesn’t mean we always fold to big ones—but it’s definitely a signal worth integrating into your decision tree.

 

[makisaa]

I would fold and stop the hand after that betting and that Q in the flop, because after those 5, 7 a straight might appear even if you got a 9!

 

[eetenor]

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/?hand=aa15Tkhv

How would you have played here?

Preflop: I didn't want to limp the raise I think is standard,
I think the raise is standard, the allin would be too aggressive with 20BB


Flop: opponent raised big, but what kind of cards would he do that with? If he limped 55 or 77 away, I don't think he'd raise that big on a set, QJ or Q10 if he limped it was too big a raise, I should have allin back here, it was a big call, I was already committed to the pot, and there are a lot of cards that could come in that I don't like

Turn: Allin, interesting again

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

At 20 bb the hand plays best as a jam vs a limp or a flat-raising 3x allows the limper to call and try to out flop us

 

[Geo90]

Ez egy lenyűgöző leosztás, és nagyon tetszik az eddigi megbeszélés mélysége. Hadd tegyem hozzá a magam két fillérjét:


Preflop 3bb-re emelni kicsit kicsi, főleg egy limpeléssel szemben. Mivel mindössze 20bb effektív zsetonom van és a button pozícióm van, inkább 3,5-4bb-re emelnék. Ez nagyobb nyomást gyakorol a limpelőre, és tisztább utat nyit arra, hogy izoláld vagy elvegyed a tétet preflop. Ennek ellenére a kis emelés kezelhetővé teszi a potot, és szélesebb körű megadásokat eredményezhet, ami 99-cel nem vészes.


A flopnál kezd igazán érdekessé válni a dolog. Az 5-Q-7 szivárvány nem különösebben ijesztő, de ha több mint a pot felét donkolod, az azonnal nehéz helyzetbe hoz. Ahogy mások is rámutattak, a donk betek – különösen online – gyengék lehetnek, de a méretezés kulcsfontosságú. Ez nem kicsi; 5,5 bb-vel indulsz ~8,5-re, ami első pillantásra erősnek tűnik. Mégis, ez egy száraz asztal, és rengeteg lehetséges lappal szemben vagy előnyben, mint például 66, 88, A5s, 76s, sőt néhány Qx is, amelyek passzívan játszhatnak preflop. Szóval szerintem a megadás itt még mindig a legjobb sor. Az emelés kidobja a rosszabb lapokat, és bajba sodor a jobbak ellen.


A turn K valóban problémát jelent. Sok félig blöffölő flop-gyengeséget zúz le, mint például a KJ, KT, sőt még a KQ is, ami már amúgy is előnyben volt. Most még a remélt blöffök egy részénél sem vagy előnyben. A turn bet mérete – 12,5 bb 19-re – valóban all-in felállásnak tűnik, ami még valószínűbbé teszi, hogy összetörsz, vagy elvékonyodsz. Csak 12 bb-vel a hátad mögött ez a helyzet tényleg szörnyű, de szerintem a dobás a helyes döntés, hacsak nincs nagyon jó read-ed arról, hogy az ellenfél túlblöfföl, vagy furcsa vonalakat választ gyenge kezekkel. Enélkül csak azért imádkozol, hogy két out közül az egyiket eltaláld egy valószínűleg erős kéz ellen.

Egyetértek azzal a véleménnyel, hogy a nagy donk tétek (különösen a flopnál) hajlamosak polarizálni a range-eket, nem csak az erő kiáltását. De amint eljutunk a turnre, és folyamatos agressziót látunk egy overcardnál, akkor a kéz gyakran egy érték-központú vonallá kristályosodik ki, kivéve, ha az ellenfél képes több hordós blöfföket elsütni pozíción kívül limpelés után. Nem lehetetlen, de ritka – különösen alacsonyabb vagy közepes téteken.

Ha valami, akkor ebben a leosztásban a valódi döntési pont a flop. Ha úgy gondolod, hogy ellenfeled már nagyon erős, akkor a flop eldobásával zsetonokat spórolhatsz. Ha úgy gondolod, hogy széles és gyenge, akkor rendben van a megadása – de ahogy láttuk, nagyon nehéz turn döntések elé állít.

És a donk betekkel kapcsolatos általánosabb megjegyzéshez: tetszik, amit fentebb mondtak a méretezésről, mint egy jelről. A kicsik blokkolónak, a nagyok elköteleződésnek érződnek. Ez nem jelenti azt, hogy mindig dobnunk kell a nagyoknál – de mindenképpen egy olyan jelzés, amelyet érdemes integrálni a döntési fádba.

I haven't dealt with donkbet so far, but you've all given a pretty detailed description here, for which thank you, I'll try to pay more attention to these and make notes about who donks with what size cards, when to bluff, and when to put a value.