€100+10 NL HE MTT: Routine spot as the preflop aggressor

[primrose]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

100+10

Currency

€

Edit: oops mistitled the thread. Sorry about that. I'm not the preflop aggressor here. Seems like you can't edit the title.

This was another hand from today's local casino tournament. This is on the second blind level (BB=100). Assume everyone has a stack of around 8000.

UTG+2 opens to 250 chips. UTG+2 is probably the splashiest player at the table, gets into big pots with mediocre hands all the time. I'm UTG+3 with . Against this player this might actually be a reasonable candidate to 3bet but I didn't have the guts at the time so I flatted. The BN also calls, which is probably the second splashiest player at the table; he'd probably do this with Q2s.

Flop comes (Pot=900.) UTG+2 cbets 300.

This is yet another spot where you could actually raise (the sizing is weak) but I didn't have the guts. If you do raise, it would be specifically because your opponents are splashy; against normal players I think this board is much too dangerous. Anyway, I just flatted. BN folds, which is not surprising at all because they call with so much garbage that they'll miss this flop a good amount of the time, and even a splashy player will fold here if they completely miss the flop. Again this is player specific, if a nitty player flats from the BN, this board would really nail their range.

Turn comes (Pot=1500.) UTG+2 checks.

Here it's easy to just check back. But I think that would be a mistake. We do have a little showdown value with our Ace high, but UTG+2 could easily have a pocket pair or even a 7 that beats us but will cave to pressure (even from a splashy player). And we have 3 outs to the nuts (and a fourth to a really strong hand that blocks the nuts), which also makes a bet more tempting. So I think a bet is in order. But how much? This is actually a good question. Maybe this is a spot to blast it and go 1800 or something. I wouldn't hate that all. But once again I didn't have the guts for anything like that and just bet half pot at 700. UTG+2 thinks for quite a while and then calls.

River comes (Pot=2900.) UTG+2 checks.

What now? And why?


My Action:

Spoiler

The long pause could mean villain is trapping. I would not put that past him. A nutted hand like77 or KQ or even AK could also play this way. So this is not like an obvious spot.

But just mathematically, and particularly given the weak cbet sizing, it is more likely to be a mediocre hand. Like 88 or 99. Or 87s. Or QJ. So I think you have to bluff this.

How much? Again not clear. I ended up betting 2100 looking mostly at pocket pairs and 7s, though this could also fold out weak Queens. It's possible that you should either go smaller to just target non-Queen pairs, or larger to also get all the Queens. Maybe this was a bit of a cowardly sizing. Yeah idk, not sure I like how I played this hand actually. I think you have to put pressure on, but I'm not sure this was the best line.

Result:

Spoiler

Villain folded pretty quickly. (I'm going to share hands where I bluff and it doesn't work in the future, I don't want the result to be predictable, but today this was the only interesting bluff I've got to make.)

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Would be nice to know, how many players were at the table. At an 8-handed table UTG+3 is actually already the HJ seat, and knowing this is more important than knowing, how many players were ahead of you. Against a normal player ATo is just a fold here, but if he is very loose, I think, both calling and 3-betting are fine. It also depends, if people behind will aggressively squeeze.

Flop
I prefer just calling here to see, what BB does and not risk getting 3-bet and forced to fold. Your hand is clearly to strong to fold to a small bet. Time to use your position and hopefully see a turn.

Turn
I dont think, it would be a mistake to check back, because your hand has decent showdown value, now that BB has folded. Betting does also accomplish something though, and its actually a combo-bet, because draws like JTs might call, and bad made hands like 87s might fold.

River
Total whiff and now a bet is solely a bluff. So the question is, does he fold enough, and here live table reads will tend to matter. Have you seen him call down with weak pairs in the past in similar situations? Then bluffing is most likely not profitable. But if you have seen him enter many pots but only show down strong hands after calling a river bet, then it might be fine to bluff this player.

A more theoretical question is, if this is the right hand to bluff? A hand like JTs would be a much more clear bluff, because it has less showdown value. But having Ad is actually bad now, because then he cant have a busted nut flushdraw, which you beat, unless its specifically AJ of diamonds, and this pushes him more towards made hands. So this combo is a better bluff candidate than AT without A of diamonds.

Results
So he tank-checked and then folded to a bet, but that does mean, your bluff worked. He might have folded some busted draw like 65 of diamonds, and his tanking would then have been him thinking about going for a donk bet as a bluff but eventually deciding to give up. Maybe he though about, if he could represent the 3 and decided, that no this would not be credible, which in fact it would not. If you had a value hand like top pair, and he donked into you on this river, it would be an easy call.

 

[primrose]

Would be nice to know, how many players were at the table.

10 players, so UTG+3 comes before LJ. Sometimes there are a few missing, but in this case I always adjust numbering to keep it consistent. If two people are missing and the first player on the (now 8-handed) table opens, I also call it UTG+2.

Have you seen him call down with weak pairs in the past in similar situations?

I have seen him call with weak pairs, but not really in similar situations. I think players are more willing to give you credit in a situation like this than if, say, you had been the preflop aggressor and he defended from the BB. I'm not exactly sure why, but my intuition says that with this line, even a splashy player will fold everything below a Q pretty easily. Mb just because I originally called a bet when it was 3way.

 

[fundiver199]

10 players, so UTG+3 comes before LJ.

Ok then I think, its just a fold preflop even against a loose player due to the high number of players behind you. As a sidenote I would hate playing 10-handed. Both ACR Poker and pokerstars have made most of their MTTs 8-handed, and on ACR Poker even the SnGs as well. And I really think, this is an improvement, because it speeds up action and allow everyone to have a higher VPIP. Obviously in live poker there is a cost issue, because dealers and tables + space for them is not free.

 

[primrose]

Ok then I think, its just a fold preflop even against a loose player due to the high number of players behind you.

AT is a strong hand though. I've just looked at a chart, and the earliest position it recommends opening AT from is the LJ. ... although the chart assumes an Ante, whereas this tournament has no ante for the first 6 levels. Still, if we assume it's usually a HJ raise, then this (meaning UTG+3, which was my position here) is two positions off. That seems like a reasonable adjustment for a passive table.

As a sidenote I would hate playing 10-handed. Both ACR Poker and PokerStars have made most of their MTTs 8-handed, and on ACR Poker even the SnGs as well. And I really think, this is an improvement, because it speeds up action and allow everyone to have a higher VPIP. Obviously in live poker there is a cost issue, because dealers and tables + space for them is not free.

Alas I really have no choice, this is the only good live tournament I have access to. The only other options are crappy tournaments at private places with much higher rake.

 

[Goggelheimer]

Even if a live tournament but AT o is no call and no 3-bet in this situation, try to remember some ranges:
There are many players left to act, every raise behind will put you in a tough spot.


These are ranges for 8-9 player tables:

grey = call and call squeeze
blue = 3-bet fold to 4-bet
red = 3-bet call 4-bet
yellow = call fold vs. squeeze
brown = 3-bet call 4 bet or Jam
mixed colours = mixed action possible

Flop
Villain c-bet for OOP is too weak.

Result luckily your bluff worked and players behind did not get the spot right.

 

[fundiver199]

AT is a strong hand though. I've just looked at a chart, and the earliest position it recommends opening AT from is the LJ.

Yes opening. But here you are not opening, you are entering the pot, when someone from an earlier seat has already opened, and that is always going to be a tighter range. As a rule of thump you take the range, you would open from Villains seat rather than your own, and then you fold the bottom of that range. If you look at solver outputs, its not quite that simple, since they like to always have some board coverage of lower boards, but they get that with suited hands and pocket pairs, not offsuit hands.

... although the chart assumes an Ante, whereas this tournament has no ante for the first 6 levels.

Then its even more of a fold.

Alas I really have no choice, this is the only good live tournament I have access to. The only other options are crappy tournaments at private places with much higher rake.

Guess you just need to fight off boredom then

 

[primrose]

Even if a live tournament but AT o is no call and no 3-bet in this situation, try to remember some ranges:
There are many players left to act, every raise behind will put you in a tough spot.

Right, but as I said --- well actually I guess I didn't mention it in this thread, but this hand is from the same table as the other one --- no one was 3betting at this table. I often make this point but, you can widen your ranges a lot if you know you don't get raised. Getting 3bet is by far the worst thing that can happen whenever you open-raise or flat a raise preflop, and GTO constructs its ranges assuming that every player after you has a GTO 3betting range (and also plays perfect GTO postflop). Conversely if you ever do get 3bet at a table like this, you almost always have an easy fold.

Yes opening. But here you are not opening, you are entering the pot, when someone from an earlier seat has already opened, and that is always going to be a tighter range. As a rule of thump you take the range, you would open from Villains seat rather than your own, and then you fold the bottom of that range.

Hmm. Well, regardless of whether I agree or not, one thing you're making me realize is that I should have more of a system for making these decisions rather than using only intuition. I should probably sit down and construct ranges for "tournament tables where no one 3bets". Then If I have those, we could (using your rule of thumb) check the UTG+2 range and see whether AT is outside (or at the very bottom) of the range, and if yes, it should be a fold.

But for now I kind of still don't think you should fold because with UTG+2 being so splashy, I'm probably not even behind his range, and I'm also not behind the calling range of most people after me. So if you can get to a flop with a better range than most players and you can also play multiway pots better, you should still have +EV.

 

[primrose]

I should probably sit down and construct ranges for "tournament tables where no one 3bets".

So, I did this. Not a final version or anything, but here's what it currently looks like for UTG+2 (on a 10-handed table, so this would correspond to UTG on an 8-handed table).

So according to the "calling a player in position X requires a slightly tighter range than opening from position X" rule, this would be a narrow fold since ATo is exactly at the bottom here. (But then I'd probably adjust based on the raiser being loose in this particular hand, and include ATo again.) Aanyway, the specific hand is much less important then having a system.

Although I have to say I don't actually follow this rule. For example even in these ranges, the weakest offsuit hands I'm raising from UTG are KQo and ATo. So your rule would suggest that, if you're at the BN and UTG opens, you should also only flat with KQo+ ATo+ (or maybe even only AJo+ if you want to exclude the bottom of that range.) Do you play like that? Because I definitely don't. I'd flat with QJo on the button, and 65s, and 22, and lots of other hands that I wouldn't open UTG.

Thinking about this now, even if this rule is good for online play (is it?) it's probably not something you should follow live because most people don't tighten up nearly enough in early position. I remember one hand where one of the most disciplined regulars at the tournament -- and also one of the better players -- opened KQo from UTG (at a full 10-handed table), got 3bet big, called, hit top pair, and then busted out of the tournament against an overpair. If that player opens KQo from UTG, then most people will open wider. (Note again that these are the expanded ranges, my "regular" RFI ranges for normal tables raises only two off suit sets from UTG, namely AQo and AKo. Idk if there's a single other player who folds AJo UTG.)