How Do You Deal With Players Covering Their Cards?

[pjokay]

Just wondering, wanting responses from live players if they have experienced angling or unallowed practises, how much do you expect the dealers to tackle it and what you should be able to challenge and would hope to be overturned.

I won a seat to £888 tournament from a $55 satellite. I have played one before and finished 10 places outside the money. This was a really good experience and enjoyed it. I then qualified for another which was quite a long journey (about 7 hours on the train).

On this tournament on the flop the turn the player in front of me raised very strongly so I went allin. I was then shocked to find a player behind reshove I thought must have folded the flop. I had checked before I went allin and clearly the only persons cards out were the person who acted in front of me and my own, again clearly in front of me at the table.

The easiest way to see who is still in the hand is by who still has cards, especially multi-way. The issue with the player on my left is he had been completely covering his cards with his hands and tucked in close to the rim. In fact, the previous dealer had already warned him about concealing his cards but there was then a dealer change.

To challenge this, I would have needed to do it immediately but did not, both through a combination of not being comfortable in live play and knowing what you can challenge the dealers on & also a bit of shock. I wish I had said to the dealer I only went allin as the player behind me was not displaying his cards so did not realise he was in the hand.

I would never have gone allin though had I known there was someone to act behind me and knowing I was in a multi way pot. I would have also played the flop differently. His chips were added silently which you can do but thought cards were meant to be on display.

I need to play live more to be comfortable with this format and some of the differences between online and live play as I am not use to the live format. I did come away from this one feeling deflated and it was not because I lost but the circumstances and the feeling the player on my left should not have been covering his cards even if I should have followed the action better. Additionally, the fact that he had already been warned and then continued to cover his cards and am not sure of the reason to completely cover cards this way except to mislead unless being overprotective, but it did not seem this way.



Have you had a similar situation, challenged the dealer and would you for the above? Would you expect the dealer to call player out on this?

 

[dannystanks]

Unfortunately for you, you did not pay attention to the action, so this was your own fault. Even if you would have called the floor they would have ruled against you.
What you should have done, because this does happen live with some players, is to call that player out on it each time, before you act. “Do you got cards, I can’t see because your big hands are in the way” “dealer does he have cards, I can’t tell”
It is up to us as players to protect ourselves.
Players do this to angle shoot. They will also hide their chips with their hands, which all chips need to be visible, so you run into that also. A simple. “Can I see your chips” or just ask the dealer for them to move their hands so you can see them. If the dealer doesn’t comply then just call the floor.

 

[5TR8 FLUSH]

I agree, you should of known where the button was at and should know that the button is last to act. I made many mistakes when I first started playing live and still make mistakes now. For example when I'm tired, I tend to not focus and realize it's on me to act. I don't like when player hide their big chips behind their smaller chips. I think dealers do what they can, but it's up to us to observe other players.

One of the most upsetting situations I was involved in was last year was is a local bounty tourney. I won an all in, and opponent only flicked their bounty chip and didn't match my stack (he had me covered). When I was given the pot, I let the dealer know immediately that I received the incorrect amount of chips. I was only given the blinds.

Things happen, be aware.

 

[pjokay]

I agree, you should of known where the button was at and should know that the button is last to act. I made many mistakes when I first started playing live and still make mistakes now. For example when I'm tired, I tend to not focus and realize it's on me to act. I don't like when player hide their big chips behind their smaller chips. I think dealers do what they can, but it's up to us to observe other players.

One of the most upsetting situations I was involved in was last year was is a local bounty tourney. I won an all in, and opponent only flicked their bounty chip and didn't match my stack (he had me covered). When I was given the pot, I let the dealer know immediately that I received the incorrect amount of chips. I was only given the blinds.

Things happen, be aware.

I think with the value of the seat I should have probably raised with the dealer before the hand was over and before he acted, I did not realise he was to act behind as his cards were not displayed at all.

While this may not have made a difference I still wish I had politely raised it before leaving if my action still stood.

Taken from an 888 article:-
"Ensure your cards are well-displayed in front of you if you’re still in a hand.
Don’t try to make others think you’re not in the hand by hiding your cards."

I should as you said I could have asked but when you look at the table and do not see any other cards you think no one else is in the hand except I should have made a mental note from when he was warned earlier although. Unfortunately I was also trying to pay attention to everything else. If they had not been completely concealed it would not have been as bad but it's also in clear breach of poker etiquette. You should be able to look at the table and clearly see who has not mucked their cards.

I think there is a poker room not far from my work though so I will see what there games are to get a bit more live experience. This would have possibly made it easier if I had been more comfortable in that format. Despite bots and real time assistance cheating online you can always clearly see who is in the hand which is a positive. It requires a quick adaption to suddenly be used to counting the chips out, and not having all the information displayed though.

At least this one's going to stick in my mind for future experiences.

That's a bit rubbish with the bounty, If he flicked a chip in that should count as a call? Did he retract the chip?

I think I would have been better trying to get some live play in before the event than trying to brush up on theory.

 

[pjokay]

Unfortunately for you, you did not pay attention to the action, so this was your own fault. Even if you would have called the floor they would have ruled against you.
What you should have done, because this does happen live with some players, is to call that player out on it each time, before you act. “Do you got cards, I can’t see because your big hands are in the way” “dealer does he have cards, I can’t tell”
It is up to us as players to protect ourselves.
Players do this to angle shoot. They will also hide their chips with their hands, which all chips need to be visible, so you run into that also. A simple. “Can I see your chips” or just ask the dealer for them to move their hands so you can see them. If the dealer doesn’t comply then just call the floor.

Dealers do call out as well though if peoples high value chips are not out in front of them, although I think this is one newcomers may accidently get wrong. Deliberately doing it is a form of cheating though.

Most players clearly display there cards but what causes players to follow these rules or basic etiquette if it is not challenged or penalised if the action is thought deliberate,

Either it's a lesson, although an expensive one.

 

[5TR8 FLUSH]

That's a bit rubbish with the bounty, If he flicked a chip in that should count as a call? Did he retract the chip?

pjokay, yes the issue was resolved. i gave back the bounty chip to the opponent because he had me covered, and he gave me the correct amount of chips. your right though, you should be able to see who's in the hand. Hopefully another player mentioned something when you left the table to the dealer about that players bad etiquette and the previous warning. GL, hope to hear more live stories, and that it goes well at the poker room near your work.

 

[pjokay]

pjokay, yes the issue was resolved. i gave back the bounty chip to the opponent because he had me covered, and he gave me the correct amount of chips. your right though, you should be able to see who's in the hand. Hopefully another player mentioned something when you left the table to the dealer about that players bad etiquette and the previous warning. GL, hope to hear more live stories, and that it goes well at the poker room near your work.

Thank you, good luck in your future games too

 

[Emily Trott]

Unfortunately for you, you did not pay attention to the action, so this was your own fault. Even if you would have called the floor they would have ruled against you.

That is not totally correct, at least for cardrooms that run tournaments according the rules of the Tournament Directors Association. (I italicized and bolded the text.) Both players would have a case to make.

"2: Player Responsibilities Players should verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands, make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn with proper terminology and gestures, defend their right to act, keep cards visible and chips correctly stacked, remain at the table..."

https://www.foxwoods.com/siteassets/casino/poker/foxwoods-poker-tournament-rules.pdf

What you should have done, because this does happen live with some players, is to call that player out on it each time, before you act. “Do you got cards, I can’t see because your big hands are in the way” “dealer does he have cards, I can’t tell”
It is up to us as players to protect ourselves.
Players do this to angle shoot. They will also hide their chips with their hands, which all chips need to be visible, so you run into that also. A simple. “Can I see your chips” or just ask the dealer for them to move their hands so you can see them. If the dealer doesn’t comply then just call the floor.

Excellent advice for dealing with that sort of player. ❤️

 

[steve01991]

always be attentive at a live table, your lively hood depends on it

 

[pjokay]

That is not totally correct, at least for cardrooms that run tournaments according the rules of the Tournament Directors Association. (I italicized and bolded the text.) Both players would have a case to make.

"2: Player Responsibilities Players should verify registration data and seat assignments, protect their hands, make their intentions clear, follow the action, act in turn with proper terminology and gestures, defend their right to act, keep cards visible and chips correctly stacked, remain at the table..."

https://www.foxwoods.com/siteassets/casino/poker/foxwoods-poker-tournament-rules.pdf

Excellent advice for dealing with that sort of player. ❤️

Thanks Emily, that looks like a good reference, looks like I may have been able to challenge it if I was quick. If it's angling it's wrong and either way following the action is easier if cards are displayed as it's clear who is in the hand. On tv the cards are always clearly identifiable and even a newbie at live I made sure my cards were completely visible every hand. In this instance you could not see the players cards on my left at all, they were completely concealed.

I did think the previous dealer was better on this identifying it and warning him. I was quite disappointed with this particular event because not seeing they were in the hand massively impacted my decision.

I need to be more aware of this but on a multiway pot it is harder. I very deliberately looked round the table to spot any cards out before reraising. I think it was a mistake not to mention it. Other players were arguing at the table over whether they should have shown their cards after a call but this seemed more fundamental to hand action.

 

[Margo17]

This is normal in live poker, it happens a lot, I've had several similar cases like this happen to me, however, you should have called the floor after the dealer had already called your opponent's attention to it. In live poker, this is how we always have to pay attention to the smallest details.

 

[SPANKYSN]

Despite the fact that your table opponent was breaking the rules, it may sound harsh, but those posts that dumped the responsibility on you are, unfortunately, correct…it appears that your inexperience playing live poker put you at a disadvantage…the more you play live poker, the more comfortable you will become and you will be aware of the subtleties of live versus online poker.

 

[pjokay]

This is normal in live poker, it happens a lot, I've had several similar cases like this happen to me, however, you should have called the floor after the dealer had already called your opponent's attention to it. In live poker, this is how we always have to pay attention to the smallest details.

Yeah, I think I should have said, I was annoyed at myself after travelling to another country that I did not at least raise it even if the decision stuck but at least raise it so the dealer could make the decision.

Watching live again last night every single player had their cards clearly displayed but I could not even see a hint of this players cards. It's a bit pointless having rules if you cannot challenge them when a player breaks them. If I had raised it and it hadn't let me reverse the shove I would have been okay with that but I would have felt better raising it but in that scenario if nothings done what stops others doing the same except from trying to play fairly and if it's in the rules not to do you would then hope it can be considered.

I do have inexperience with live play and definitely need to brush on that but at the same time you should be able to see a players cards if their in their hand. If this is the sort of tactics in use and puts me off a bit travelling as far for live events although in the previous one I was in I made day 2 and played almost to the bubble and did not see one instance of play like this with someone's cards complexly obscured from sight.

 

[Margo17]

Yeah, I think I should have said, I was annoyed at myself after travelling to another country that I did not at least raise it even if the decision stuck but at least raise it so the dealer could make the decision.

Watching live again last night every single player had their cards clearly displayed but I could not even see a hint of this players cards. It's a bit pointless having rules if you cannot challenge them when a player breaks them. If I had raised it and it hadn't let me reverse the shove I would have been okay with that but I would have felt better raising it but in that scenario if nothings done what stops others doing the same except from trying to play fairly and if it's in the rules not to do you would then hope it can be considered.

I do have inexperience with live play and definitely need to brush on that but at the same time you should be able to see a players cards if their in their hand. If this is the sort of tactics in use and puts me off a bit travelling as far for live events although in the previous one I was in I made day 2 and played almost to the bubble and did not see one instance of play like this with someone's cards complexly obscured from sight.

These are complicated situations, because there are actions in bad faith and those that are just involuntary due to a distraction by the player or something like that. Unfortunately, there will always be those who have bad intentions and want to act to benefit themselves all the time, what needs to be done is for them to be discovered and punished. I hope you have better luck in the future, and that you don't go through this situation again, good luck my friend.

 

[pjokay]

These are complicated situations, because there are actions in bad faith and those that are just involuntary due to a distraction by the player or something like that. Unfortunately, there will always be those who have bad intentions and want to act to benefit themselves all the time, what needs to be done is for them to be discovered and punished. I hope you have better luck in the future, and that you don't go through this situation again, good luck my friend.

Many thanks Margo, hopefully having been in this situation once I will have awareness of it.

Live games are long though and it was very good the first dealer picked up on this, your paying the house £88 and this helps protect you as it does not feel good to loose this way.

But will aim for another, if I keep plugging away at satellites, hopefully for an event slightly closer, I hope I will make another. While I have only been in couple and not cashed it feels like there is more chance than these huge online games like pokerstars Sunday Million where you may have over 10,000 players some of who may be potentially running illegal software.

I got in cheap but the travel fares and hotel expenses to add some to the overall cost but do want to give it another shot, but as mentioned I do need to play live more just for comfortability and familiarity.

I wish you all the best luck at tables too Margo, live or online.

Kind Regards

Pj.