Post Hand Analysis in Real Time - Good For The Game...or...the Beginning Of The End?

[CRStals]

If you watched any part of the wsop Main Event Final table, you will have noticed eventual champion Jonathan Tamayo getting information from his rail that could have included post hand analysis with solvers; coaching from other pros (including former Main Event champion Joe McKeehen) and other information from the DTO Poker team.

He has come under some scrutiny for his use of these tools in his pursuit of the greatest prize in poker.

So what say you...is this a good thing for poker to encourage or allow the use of these tools at a high profile final table OR could this be the beginning of the end of rails, technology and other training methods to aid players?

 

[seiya1989]

In my opinion it's not right and it's ridiculous that they allow it, hey man, you're playing live right now, when the event ends check everything you want, technology wants to ruin everything.

 

[Station_Master]

No, it was completely against the spirit of competition and borderline cheating. It wasn't post hand analysis, it was the ICM solution for the next hand ( I presume, but this would be the most logical). It shouldn't be allowed.

 

[MK_]

I think it's terrible for the game, had friends message me about this before I saw the game and I couldn't believe it lol,

why would they allow this during the wsop?, the game of games?, it's a terrible idea, it looks horrific, amateurish, lame,

....play your own game and save that for after the game with your friends!

 

[pentazepam]

Terrible of course. Almost like playing chess with a chess program/computer beside you.

poker online is almost dead (at least over 100NL/PLO Cash).

LIVE poker must be man against man (or woman) if it wants to attract new/recreational players - even if it takes walking to the table naked.

Hey, nude poker may be the last opportunity left.

Count me in (I will play the ladies' events only) since I claim to identify as a woman.

 

[maronza1]

This is the beginning of an end. This will eventually bring a downfall to the game of poker. If you are confident about your play at high level games, why would you get information about hand analysis and coaching during the game? Its not good at all

 

[Mortis]

I said this in another thread, but save it for the breaks. Do your post hand analysis with your team then. Not while on the rail. I figured that's one of the reasons why they delay a poker stream by 30 minutes - 1 hour, so they can't do hand analysis in real time.

Has poker really become a "Team Sport" or "Team Game?" I understand having coaches and getting better and such. But not right there on the rail in between hands.

 

[najisami]

I can only join everyone above and be against such behavior.
I also agree that that might bring a downfall, but not to the poker industry altogether, just to the "live rail" perhaps.

 

[pentazepam]

I understand having coaches and getting better and such.

Poker is not like other "sports" (as you know as a fighter).

If the players get too close to each other in skill the only winner is the rake and the house.

You must have a clear edge to make significant money.

If everyone gets computer assistance live poker will go the same way as online poker.

 

[G0930]

Poker online is almost dead (at least over 100NL/PLO Cash).

What? No it's not...on certain sites maybe .


I also agree with posts above.. It will ruin liverail and most certainly should not be allowed

 

[Goggelheimer]

I think the tournament director or floor manager did a bad job if this happened.
It is their job to calm down the rail to an acceptable amount of cheering.
During a hand they should keep quiet, even in All In situations.
Mobile phones for the railbirds and players should be forbidden at the final table.
Pictures should be given out free of charge from the broadcasting services for the players, if they want to have some memorable pictures.
If they don't follow the tournament director's announcements they have to go.

Hey, nude poker may be the last opportunity left.

Count me in (I will play the ladies' events only) since I claim to identify as a woman.

You'll have a major disadvantage, all your hole cards will be played face up, due to some power from below turning them always face up.
Many other distractions, perhaps you can not see your cards any longer because you were blinded for some reason, or your analytical mind is blocked by things you see.

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

Didn't see it and not really interested but anyone can do that stuff during a break and that's what most decent players are doing instead of waiting in a line for food or something.

If you grind live games where regular grinders frequent then there is a good chance they'll take notice of you and share what info they have on you if you start showing up all the time and have a clue what you're doing so sharing info isn't some crazy new thing.

People were always getting up to confirm things with their top pro buds in these big tourns because the rail usually has a piece of their horse in the tourn. So its a mutual interest that the player does well.

So you have a professional player, with a group of other pros helping them and they're using software to help them, yeah. . the days of Chris Moneymaker are long gone.

They're going to have to move really big payout final tables like the Main to an isolated room though.

Broadcast the hands from the MAIN on a tape delay once they start getting down to the last few tables.

Now I'm kinda interested in whether the title should be: Jonathan Tamayo or Jonathan Tamayo et al.

 

[steve01991]

It takes away from the game. should never be used.

 

[CRStals]

So I agree with the general consensus but let me throw something at you all...

At this point of the tournament, they are playing for a ladder jump of millions of dollars. One single mistake could cost the player up to $6 Million going out third versus first. Does the amount of money change your thought? Would you want to make a mistake in that seat knowing it could be a $6 Million mistake?

 

[Poker Orifice]

So I agree with the general consensus but let me throw something at you all...

At this point of the tournament, they are playing for a ladder jump of millions of dollars. One single mistake could cost the player up to $6 Million going out third versus first. Does the amount of money change your thought? Would you want to make a mistake in that seat knowing it could be a $6 Million mistake?

The only thing the money changes is it makes it even more of a crime. What are you suggesting? Because there's more money it's okay to break the rules?
fwiw, checking sims that were run on past hands, between hands isn't going to cause one to not make a mistake.

If you listen to some of the vids. on Twitter, you'll see that at the beginning of each tournament there's an announcement saying (in short) that software cannot be used.

There was actually quite a few poker players suggesting on Twitter that what the Main Event winner(?) did was completely okay. What a joke!
Did you see the concealed ear piece being hidden after the win, lol. ridiculous.

I think poker would grow if they took that guy's prize away from him.

I at the very least hope this causes WSOP (& others) to be very specific in their rules and then INFORCE them! Also, the guys who own the trainer sites (GTOW, DTO, etc.) should have a delay set on them... AND they should not be able to be used on Sundays at all (not for studying, etc.). It might bring back some hope for poker.

 

[fundiver199]

As I said already in another thread, I definitely do not think, that any kind of coaching from the rail should be allowed. When players are on a break, including the break between days, they can do, whatever they want. But the rail should solely be for watching, cheering and applauding, as it is in any other spectator event.

 

[Propane Goat]

I think this kind of trend will eventually discourage a lot of recreational players from entering the tournament at all, it certainly would discourage me. I would already be at a significant disadvantage due to less experience and training, and if I have to play not against individual players but teams running software throughout the game then what chance would I even have?

It's like trying to compete in a NASCAR or Formula 1 race where you're up against all these big money teams with high-performance cars, and all you have is a 1978 Toyota Corolla to run with.

 

[CRStals]

The only thing the money changes is it makes it even more of a crime. What are you suggesting? Because there's more money it's okay to break the rules?
fwiw, checking sims that were run on past hands, between hands isn't going to cause one to not make a mistake.

If you listen to some of the vids. on Twitter, you'll see that at the beginning of each tournament there's an announcement saying (in short) that software cannot be used.

There was actually quite a few poker players suggesting on Twitter that what the Main Event winner(?) did was completely okay. What a joke!
Did you see the concealed ear piece being hidden after the win, lol. ridiculous.

I think poker would grow if they took that guy's prize away from him.

I at the very least hope this causes WSOP (& others) to be very specific in their rules and then INFORCE them! Also, the guys who own the trainer sites (GTOW, DTO, etc.) should have a delay set on them... AND they should not be able to be used on Sundays at all (not for studying, etc.). It might bring back some hope for poker.

No not at all - suggesting that with the amount of money on the line are we surprised to see this type of behaviour at the final table? I'm not - these players, if given the opportunity and the floor would allow it, would do this. Anything to get the slightest edge at the final table.

The one thing I'm puzzled by is why did the floor allow this. With all of the media attention and the people watching, this is turning out to be a bad look for the WSOP and I'm very interested to see what changes at next year's event.

 

[I Live Poker]

If you watched any part of the WSOP Main Event Final table, you will have noticed eventual champion Jonathan Tamayo getting information from his rail that could have included post hand analysis with solvers; coaching from other pros (including former Main Event champion Joe McKeehen) and other information from the DTO Poker team.

He has come under some scrutiny for his use of these tools in his pursuit of the greatest prize in poker.

So what say you...is this a good thing for poker to encourage or allow the use of these tools at a high profile final table OR could this be the beginning of the end of rails, technology and other training methods to aid players?

I just think that players already study and train so much away from the tables that doing it in real time doesn't influence anything in the ongoing tournament.
This is nothing more than an exaggeration, a compulsion to study that leads nowhere, and could have been analyzed later.

 

[I Live Poker]

Terrible of course. Almost like playing chess with a chess program/computer beside you.

Poker online is almost dead (at least over 100NL/PLO Cash).

LIVE poker must be man against man (or woman) if it wants to attract new/recreational players - even if it takes walking to the table naked.

Hey, nude poker may be the last opportunity left.

Count me in (I will play the ladies' events only) since I claim to identify as a woman.

The other champion, Natali Vierling, represents me!
She played with heart and crushed it at the final table.

 

[Igor G]

I don't see anything good in using all these additional tools while playing. It just turns poker into a competition of some kind of technology, and I think it spoils the whole point of this wonderful game. I'm definitely against the use of such tools.

 

[I Live Poker]

I see everyone intrigued, as if analyzing a finished hand would help in the tournament in progress, doing this is the same thing as studying it later, it will not bring any benefit in the present, because the situation analyzed and perhaps the "recognized error" does not help. in question is unlikely to occur again.
However if there is real time communication with headphones then yes it would be like ghosting.
This is nothing more than a study addiction and a lovable nerd role.

 

[I Live Poker]

I see most players worried about the direction poker is taking in relation to technology, but that's nonsense, poker is indomitable and you can do everything right in the technical part, and it simply doesn't work due to the luck factor.
When things work, we create justifications and connections with the actions related to the results, and the same happens when we are having bad results, we look for errors in the actions to adjust them, but these are all just comparisons on which the basis we we create, but we have to remember that the complete basis of poker is not the basis we create to obtain more stability and justifications.

We create the standards in poker to have some minimal baseline to go by, but intuition and luck are just as important as having a baseline.
The movements of the poker organism always happen, and I'm going to do a Nostradamus and say that in the next period of poker everyone will see old school players winning with greater frequency.

From today onwards I'm going to prove it to you, I'm not going to touch any more studies and I'm not going to use Hud anymore, and I'm going to be the world poker champion, when I don't know, but as soon as it happens I'll publish it here in CC.

 

[Station_Master]

I see everyone intrigued, as if analyzing a finished hand would help in the tournament in progress, doing this is the same thing as studying it later, it will not bring any benefit in the present, because the situation analyzed and perhaps the "recognized error" does not help. in question is unlikely to occur again.
However if there is real time communication with headphones then yes it would be like ghosting.
This is nothing more than a study addiction and a lovable nerd role.

He obviously wasn't analysing past hands... he was analysing the next spot

 

[I Live Poker]

He obviously wasn't analysing past hands... he was analysing the next spot

How to analyze the upcoming situation if he doesn't know what will happen?
Unless they have already invented the machine of the future and I am out of date.