LOL I am not done.. Question on another strategy..

[twizzybop]

Ok early or mid position people limp in..yet a late position makes a pre flop raise. Those limpers call..

Question is and I keep wondering always about this... If you won't raise a hand pre-flop why do people call a raise pre-flop especially when they are in early or mid position.

I see people doing this all the time.. if you call a raise.. then why in the heck didn't you raise in the 1st place?

Just doesn't make sense to me.. its good enough to limp in with, isn't good enough to raise with, but it sure as heck good enough to call a raise with.

 

[t1riel]

Maybe they are slow playing AK or Pocket Jacks. They shouldn't slow play them but I know a lot of poker players that do. I should ask why one of these days.

 

[colin_147]

Couple of simple answers.

1) Maybe the raise isnt enough to push players out of the pot. A raise after quite a few limps is usually a sign of strengh and should be treated as such on a normal table with decent players. For instance, a lot of players will call with KQs in early position when blinds r low (say 20 chips) a raise of 80 is not going to push these players out

2) Following on from the last point, players who consider pot odds (they should) are going to call in a late position after a raise then early limpers calling the raise, for instance if I limp in late position after 4 or 5 limpers, some in front of me raise and then all those limpers call that raise, I am not laying down my hand for another 60 chips when there is already 500 chips in the pot

Just 2 simple answers but loads to consider

 

[twizzybop]

Maybe the raise isnt enough to push players out of the pot. A raise after quite a few limps is usually a sign of strengh and should be treated as such on a normal table with decent players. For instance, a lot of players will call with KQs in early position when blinds r low (say 20 chips) a raise of 80 is not going to push these players out

Yes and again if the KQ is good enough to call a raise.. it should be good enough to raise with.

I am not laying down my hand for another 60 chips when there is already 500 chips in the pot Again.. if your hand isn't good enough to call raise with.. why call a raise??

 

[colin_147]

Maybe the raise isnt enough to push players out of the pot. A raise after quite a few limps is usually a sign of strengh and should be treated as such on a normal table with decent players. For instance, a lot of players will call with KQs in early position when blinds r low (say 20 chips) a raise of 80 is not going to push these players out

Yes and again if the KQ is good enough to call a raise.. it should be good enough to raise with.

I am not laying down my hand for another 60 chips when there is already 500 chips in the pot Again.. if your hand isn't good enough to call raise with.. why call a raise??

So what you are basically saying is that you should never call preflop? If you want to play then you have to raise?

I didnt want to go into too much details but a few of the other reasons are

1} To trap players into going OTT when you are in an early position, this allows you to then go OTT of them, maximising your winnings

2) To give away a particular image at the table is also another good one. If you are continously calling preflop with no hand then you are likely to get action on a regular basis that then gives you the opportunity to maximise your premium hands

 

[Kraigus]

I've been changing up my style a little bit on a few tourney's and I've only been raising when I think I have good cards. You know if it is good enough to call it should be good enough to raise, otherwise fold. Well so far I have seen an improvement in my game. I always like to mix it up and from what I learn from this forum and books has really helped.

 

[twizzybop]

1} To trap players into going OTT when you are in an early position, this allows you to then go OTT of them, maximising your winnings

Major problem with this strategy.. if say 3-5 limp in.. your hand has now gone down dramatically in winning(making your profits go poof). So trying to trap early, you are more than likely trapping yourself when limpers come in. A pre-flop raise would eliminate some or even all of the limpers. You want to chase out the rag players, not let them play those hands.

2) To give away a particular image at the table is also another good one. If you are continously calling preflop with no hand then you are likely to get action on a regular basis that then gives you the opportunity to maximise your premium hands

Problem with this strategy is.. your wasting chips/money on hands when a premium hand does come along you can extract more chips from your opponent. You also won't be as short stacked when your premium hand gets cracked by a rag card player. You'll have chips/money still to play with when this happens.. yet you won't have chips/money to play with if you are continously calling hands pre-flop if that happens.

 

[titans4ever]

I know what you mean. I was at a 2/10 table last night and 3 call the $2 to me on the button with A 10. I want to narrow the field some so I raise to $12. All 3 call !?! I had no idea what any of them had that was worth only $2 a minute ago but now was worth $12. I Folded post flop when I got nothing and there was a raise and reraise before me. All 3 had pocket pairs from 10s down to 5s and could not let any of them go so at least I saw what they all had.

Answers to your questions based on my observations:
#1 Small to mid range pocket pairs is one that I will see alot of people limp in with and then call a raise with. Say you have 7s and you limp in and some raises after you to everyone else folded back to you. 7s heads up has a better chance to win than in a multiplayer pot since the chance of them holding up has increased. Me personally, I would either reraise and assume 2 overs (50/50 to win) or muck (my preferred move depending on situation), but I see alot of people just call.

#2 Suited connectors from 78 and above can have pot odds if enough people call your raise. If they limp, someone raises and 2-3 call the raise then someone still has pot odds to at least see the flop and run it they don't like it.

#3 People in early position may just call to see what the rest of the table is going to do and hope to get by with nothing more invested or are afraid of a large reraise. In their mind they set what bet they are willing to call if it comes to that.

#4 Idoits, morons and newbees(have to put them there, hard to tell them apart from the other 2). They are the ones who just have not learned to play yet and don't know any better.

 

[Ima6T4]

Slowplaying possibly, especially on a tight table and trying to get a few chips in the pot. I also agree with GF that small and mid pp will call the bb and a small or moderate raise but aren't strong enough to raise pre-flop. Seems like lately if I raise with 88 or under on a full table I end up losing the pot.

 

[twizzybop]

Small to mid range pocket pairs is one that I will see alot of people limp in with and then call a raise with. Say you have 7s and you limp in and some raises after you to everyone else folded back to you. 7s heads up has a better chance to win than in a multiplayer pot since the chance of them holding up has increased. Me personally, I would either reraise and assume 2 overs (50/50 to win) or muck (my preferred move depending on situation), but I see alot of people just call.

This one makes sense .. 77's, 88's, and 99's are nice hands but dangerous against multi players unless of course they hit a set.

2 Suited connectors from 78 and above can have pot odds if enough people call your raise. If they limp, someone raises and 2-3 call the raise then someone still has pot odds to at least see the flop and run it they don't like it.

This one does make sense to a point... but if everyone folds to you then a 4X BB raise would warrent a call.. the suited connectors usually are good against multi players who only raise 1-2X the BB. You can't be the 1st to call the raise though cause the others may fold behind you leaving you heads up with the original raiser.

#3 People in early position may just call to see what the rest of the table is going to do and hope to get by with nothing more invested or are afraid of a large reraise. In their mind they set what bet they are willing to call if it comes to that

If they have a set bet and are willing to call it.. then why not bet it.. if a re-raise comes.. they do have the option to fold.

 

[twizzybop]

Ooops
but if everyone folds to you then a 4X BB raise would warrent a call.

Should be wouldn't warrant a call.

 

[titans4ever]

yes, the suited connector only works if you are in the right position to see what everyone else has done and there are enough people in the pot to make it worth a call. Works better for ring games than in a tournament. Don't like to waste chips on hitting the right flop to often.

 

[SexyAceJoker]

My little insight is, from a tournament point of view is :
I would limp with AA and KK from early position, usually at this stage of the tournament late players almost always raise, and i will imidiatly push with those premiums ( I only do it with those two hands ) -This would be like a check-raise post flop and when i see people do it, im not taking part on that pot unless i got a strong hand ^_^

 

[twizzybop]

Here is a reason why you'd want to raise even per say mid/late position ..

Example say you have the K,Q suited.. and you raise.. you may get everyone to the button to fold.. Now you have control and you become the button..

Yet you limp in.. you now have to hope that every folds to the button..

So a raise would work much better in this case instead of limping or calling a raise.

 

[F Paulsson]

Your question is only regarding to no-limit, right?

In limit hold'em, folding to a single raise like you described would be out of the question in almost every case where you would limp in.

 

[twizzybop]

Yes it is no limit..

folding to a single raise like you described would be out of the question in almost every case where you would limp in.

Me and gfpoker went through most of were calling a raise would be the best time to...

I will do a for instance.. I remember this hand I played the other day,,

I have K,Q suited Next to the button.. 2 Limpers come in.. rest fold to me.. I say lets raise just to see what goes on here. The button folds, the 2 blinds fold, but both limpers call. Not a problem I am thinking...Flop shows K,10,3 Rainbow.. I bet the pot which I admit I like to do...I get 1 caller and 1 to fold.
Another card comes with no help for either of us.. I bet again.. he calls.. I now have to really think.. what does he have??.. River now shows a Q.. giving me 2 pair. I bet hard this time and he calls.. I won..

He then tells me nice catch while holding K.10.. Thats where I asked him this infamous question.. If you won't raise with a hand then why call a raise???

Basically I try to think if a hand I have isn't worth me raising then I am not going to call a raise with it...

 

[Four Dogs]

For the most part, your correct. If it's good enough to call, it's good enough to raise. However, there are hands which play well in a multi way pot, suited connectors for example. I will rarely play these from EP when I'm confident that I will be reraised. Limping in with these hands is a way of taking advantage of a weak table. You miss the flop, then your out and you haven't risked much. When you hit, you more than make up for the times you don't. This is not just throwing money out the window, and all the more reason to raise when you have a strong starting hand. You want to isolate with a strong hand and get in cheap with the draws.

 

[twizzybop]

If it's good enough to call, it's good enough to raise. However, there are hands which play well in a multi way pot, suited connectors for example

This will exemplify what I am trying to get across.. to put more on this point.. High suited connectors like 8,9 or higher. One raise will make it worth while playing these in a mulit player pot.

 

[jsaw]

I agree with twizzybop's comments.

There are a lot of hands one may want to play for as cheaply as possible especially in multiway pots: low suited connectors and mid range pairs are two examples.

The action one takes to raise or limp after limpers depends on the other players, position, relative chip stacks, and the type of game and, the blinds.


A the beginning of a freeroll tourney bets seem to have little relevance to how some players play. Had a player call each of my pot size bets on the flop and turn, then allin bluff on the end. There were no flushes, straight or boat possiblities. I turned my rockets; he his 10,4 for a A,q,10 6,4. I watched literally dozens of similiar plays.

Point is I do not think in the early rounds of freerolls it matters how you bet, the goal is simply to try to stay alive and accumulate enough chips to be competitive.

 

[F Paulsson]

Yes it is no limit..

folding to a single raise like you described would be out of the question in almost every case where you would limp in.

My quote here was preceeded with "in limit hold'em...", and I stand by that. Unless you have exceptional reason to believe you're either dominated, or otherwise completely screwed over (like the guy to your left will re-raise after you call), a single raise once it gets back to you is not something you fold. If you had the odds of limping before, you have even better odds of calling a single bet now.

When your limped hand gets raised, you will regret not having folded the first time around, sure. But folding now would be a mistake as well, in most every scenario.

But this is generally only true for limit. Unless, of course, the raise you're up against is the minimum, in which case you're faced with the same scenario as in limit.

This is why minraising is bad, m'kay?

 

[twizzybop]

Paulson.. Yeah I should have speculated from the beginning this is all from a no limit perspective. I personally don't care for limit based apon and I have said this before in a previous thread. Grumble's to be exact.. the bet(s) don't carry the same scare component limit would do. I like to scare chasers and what nots from thier hand, not let them call a minimum bet cause they can.

I've tried limit online a few times and not to my liking.. Even tried it when I visited my brother on the wsop for his PS2.. I didn't like it much even on that as well. I did have fun however with Pot Limit.. at least that you can make scare bets that I am used to..

I probably need alot more practice to get used to playing limit before I go into the money aspect of it.

 

[Kj Sexton]

My guess is they have decent cards like noted in a previous reply (forget who said it , the KQ for example) and see that the bet is contained with little chance for a re-raise. Especially Pre-flop when all you have is a percentage as to how good that hand is... Also they could be pot committed at that point or think something similar along those lines.....

 

[twizzybop]

This person just made my point even though they did win.. after that tourney... played a cheap .50 45 man tourney.. if you can't raise with it, why call a raise with it??
I only pushed all-in to make my point valid..

Table: 5 (real money) Seat #1 is the dealer
Seat 1 - BUCKNUT17 ($1350 in chips)
Seat 2 - GREG_DOG ($1910 in chips)
Seat 3 - TWIZZYBOP ($1430 in chips)
Seat 4 - GIZARD ($1250 in chips)
Seat 5 - MARBLE DAN ($1400 in chips)
Seat 6 - MUSH003 ($1320 in chips)
Seat 7 - BEST1INSHOW ($3500 in chips)
Seat 9 - SMART_001 ($1030 in chips)
GREG_DOG - Posts small blind $15
TWIZZYBOP - Posts big blind $30
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to TWIZZYBOP [Jd As]
GIZARD - Folds
MARBLE DAN - Folds
MUSH003 - Calls $30
BEST1INSHOW - Calls $30
SMART_001 - Folds
BUCKNUT17 - Calls $30
GREG_DOG - Calls $15
TWIZZYBOP - Raises $150 to $180
MUSH003 - Folds
BEST1INSHOW - Calls $150
BUCKNUT17 - Calls $150
GREG_DOG - Folds
*** FLOP *** [9c 6s Qc]
TWIZZYBOP - Bets $180
BEST1INSHOW - Calls $180
BUCKNUT17 - Calls $180
*** TURN *** [9c 6s Qc] [5h]
TWIZZYBOP - Bets $180
BEST1INSHOW - Raises $450 to $450
BUCKNUT17 - Folds
TWIZZYBOP - All-In(Raise) $890 to $1070
BEST1INSHOW - Calls $620
*** RIVER *** [9c 6s Qc 5h] [Qh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TWIZZYBOP - Shows [Jd As] (One pair, queens)
BEST1INSHOW - Shows [Qs 10d] (Three of a kind, queens)
BEST1INSHOW Collects $3280 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($3280)
Board [9c 6s Qc 5h Qh]
Seat 1: BUCKNUT17 (dealer) Folded on the TURN
Seat 2: GREG_DOG (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: TWIZZYBOP (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, queens [Jd As - B:Qh,B:Qc,P:As,P:Jd,B:9c]
Seat 4: GIZARD Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: MARBLE DAN Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: MUSH003 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: BEST1INSHOW won Total ($3280) HI$3280) with Three of a kind, queens [Qs 10d - P:Qs,B:Qh,B:Qc,P:10d,B:9c]
Seat 9: SMART_001 Folded on the POCKET CARDS

 

[colin_147]

1} To trap players into going OTT when you are in an early position, this allows you to then go OTT of them, maximising your winnings

Major problem with this strategy.. if say 3-5 limp in.. your hand has now gone down dramatically in winning(making your profits go poof). So trying to trap early, you are more than likely trapping yourself when limpers come in. A pre-flop raise would eliminate some or even all of the limpers. You want to chase out the rag players, not let them play those hands.

2) To give away a particular image at the table is also another good one. If you are continously calling preflop with no hand then you are likely to get action on a regular basis that then gives you the opportunity to maximise your premium hands

Problem with this strategy is.. your wasting chips/money on hands when a premium hand does come along you can extract more chips from your opponent. You also won't be as short stacked when your premium hand gets cracked by a rag card player. You'll have chips/money still to play with when this happens.. yet you won't have chips/money to play with if you are continously calling hands pre-flop if that happens.

There is a danger when limping early of course, this has to be taken into consideration at all times. However, when the blinds are high you are not likely to get players limping in, in fact players are more likely to be raising with any kind of hand to pick up the blinds. Unless you have a good idea of the way the other players are playing at the table, then its pretty dangerous. BUT at the same time this can be a very profitable tactic, particularly when an aggressive player is likely to go OTT of your flat call.

A lot depends on your chip stack and the size of the blinds in relation to the 2nd point. A player with a 40k chip stack and blinds of 1/2k may wish to limp in a late position on a regular basis, not only to see a flop but also to bully the other players with no hand. Of course you cant call every hand and your have to consider chip position and table position but it can be good at times to give a false image of yourself at the table - if you can afford it