€400 NL HE Full Ring: How do you play the second nut flush on the River?

[primrose]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$2/$4

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

€

In this hand, UTG+3 opens to 14 and LJ flats. I'm in the CO with . This is a super nice hand but the LJ is the nittiest player in the casino (plus,it's not a bad hand to go mutliway) so I'm not 3betting. I flat. The BN comes along as well as does the SB. The SB is a very weak player, super straight-forward, I don't think he has bluffed a single time since we've played, and he kept betting far too small when he hit something.

Flop comes (Pot=74). The SB donks for 14, and UTG+3 and LJ fold. You could raise here, but since I have position and I think I have a huge skill edge against the SB, I decide to just check and, if he seems weak on the Turn, make a play there. So I call. BN folds. We're now heads-up.

Turn comes the (Pot=102), giving me the second nuts. Sweet! SB checks.

I have no reason to assume SB has a flush himself, and if I bet large now, my hand becomes quite obvious. But rather than checking, I decide to bet tiny, I think this probably looks weakest. I bet 20. SB calls.

River comes the (Pot=144), a mostly harmless card. A few straights get there, but it's not very likely. SB checks again.

So, now what? Obviously you don't just wanna blast it because your hand is strong. What matters is, how strong is the opponent? And I think my opponent is most likely to have a mediocre pair, like a 6, maybe a Jack. I don't think one pair will pay very much at all. So I bet tiny again, just 20.

However, SB raises to 53. This changes everything; for a weak player like this, especially given his weak sizing with strong hands in the past, this raise is extremely strong. Even though this is an odd way for him to have played a flush, I still think that this is what he has now.

So of course I should raise. But how much? Villain had about 300 chips left going into the River, and I also had about that many.

My action and thoughts (post your thoughts before reading this):

Spoiler

I raised to 100, which I think was an extremely weak play. This is one of those cases where in retrospect, I know the play is bad, I would never recommend it if someone else posted the hand, in the moment I was scared of the nut flush for some reason. I think this was probably the biggest blunder I've made this week. Anyway, Villain instantly calls with .

I think the good options here were (1) go all-in, or (2) maybe size down just a little and raise something like 200 since it's not inconceivable that he could fold a flush to a jam. (However, he'd never fold a flush to 200 I don't think, and if he has a non-flush he's probably folding to any raise, so 200 is just way better than 100.) And if you do make it 200 and he jams on top of it, you could make a ridiculous hero fold against the nut flush.

But, what do you think? And what about flop and Turn?

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
I would also call here, if there is a nit in the hand. Never folding but sometimes 3-betting.

Flop
As you say, you could raise, but its also fine to just call and then maybe put the hammer down on the turn.

Turn
I think, this bet is to small. It makes sense for him to have a J and play it this way, and I dont think, a J is folding for 40 as opposed to 20. You have a very strong hand now and need to build the pot, especially since you just called his small flop donk.

River
This is another problem with playing so slow. Now there is a 1-liner to a straight, so its more difficult to get top pair to pay, which is really the main hand, you are targeting. I guess, he could sometimes have a straight, but there are way less combos of that. Like maybe 43s or something. So as played I think, its fine to bet small again.

When he raise, its kind of awkward, because the sizing is so small. You say, you think, he has a flush, but in that case you are most likely beat, because there are more combos of the nut flush than reasonable smaller flushes, and people are also much more likely to slowplay the nut flush. If he had a T high flush or worse he would want to protect it against hands with a single higher spade in them.

He could be raising a straight, because you bet so small, that your hand does not look like a flush. But as I said already, there are very few logical combos of those. Of course you are not folding here getting like a million to one. But I think, its actually just a call, because I think, its unlikely, he is taking this line with a worse flush, and there also are not many combos of those, when you have both the K and Q, and the J is on the table.

Results
I think, you were quite lucky to run into a small flush here. Although of course if he can have something as bad as T7s, then my argument about combos become less valid. But normally I would assume, that a SB call could be A7s and T9s but not T7s. But that being said, because you went so small, you can actually 3-bet fold. If he comes back over the top with a 4-bet, thats highly unlikely to be anything other than the nuts. So you can get a bit of value from smaller flushes or straights while not going broke against the nut flush.

 

[primrose]

I think, you were quite lucky to run into a small flush here. Although of course if he can have something as bad as T7s, then my argument about combos become less valid. But normally I would assume, that a SB call could be A7s and T9s but not T7s. But that being said, because you went so small, you can actually 3-bet fold. If he comes back over the top with a 4-bet, thats highly unlikely to be anything other than the nuts. So you can get a bit of value from smaller flushes or straights while not going broke against the nut flush.

Interesting take. But yeah, weak live players are not likely to fold this hand in the SB, especially multiway. I know that low suited cards aren't actually that great multi way because of exactly this, you can run into a bigger flush, but they don't think that.

I mean, why would you come here on your off day, into a casino, get a suited hand, in a blind position, and then not play it? That doesn't make any sense!

 

[fundiver199]

But yeah, weak live players are not likely to fold this hand in the SB, especially multiway. I know that low suited cards aren't actually that great multi way because of exactly this, you can run into a bigger flush, but they don't think that.

Yeah I think, that live poker boredom is definitely important here, and for that reason maybe its ok to 3-bet the river for value against soft live opponents. Whereas online I think, it leans more towards just a call. Unless of course you know something about the opponent, like maybe they are a 54% VPIP.

 

[MatheusANF]

General mode depends vilan stats and pre flop actions. In this situation 2,5x raise on river

 

[eetenor]

In this hand, UTG+3 opens to 14 and LJ flats. I'm in the CO with . This is a super nice hand but the LJ is the nittiest player in the casino (plus,it's not a bad hand to go mutliway) so I'm not 3betting. I flat. The BN comes along as well as does the SB. The SB is a very weak player, super straight-forward, I don't think he has bluffed a single time since we've played, and he kept betting far too small when he hit something.

Flop comes (Pot=74). The SB donks for 14, and UTG+3 and LJ fold. You could raise here, but since I have position and I think I have a huge skill edge against the SB, I decide to just check and, if he seems weak on the Turn, make a play there. So I call. BN folds. We're now heads-up.

Turn comes the (Pot=102), giving me the second nuts. Sweet! SB checks.

I have no reason to assume SB has a flush himself, and if I bet large now, my hand becomes quite obvious. But rather than checking, I decide to bet tiny, I think this probably looks weakest. I bet 20. SB calls.

River comes the (Pot=144), a mostly harmless card. A few straights get there, but it's not very likely. SB checks again.

So, now what? Obviously you don't just wanna blast it because your hand is strong. What matters is, how strong is the opponent? And I think my opponent is most likely to have a mediocre pair, like a 6, maybe a Jack. I don't think one pair will pay very much at all. So I bet tiny again, just 20.

However, SB raises to 53. This changes everything; for a weak player like this, especially given his weak sizing with strong hands in the past, this raise is extremely strong. Even though this is an odd way for him to have played a flush, I still think that this is what he has now.

So of course I should raise. But how much? Villain had about 300 chips left going into the River, and I also had about that many.

My action and thoughts (post your thoughts before reading this):

Spoiler

I raised to 100, which I think was an extremely weak play. This is one of those cases where in retrospect, I know the play is bad, I would never recommend it if someone else posted the hand, in the moment I was scared of the nut flush for some reason. I think this was probably the biggest blunder I've made this week. Anyway, Villain instantly calls with .

I think the good options here were (1) go all-in, or (2) maybe size down just a little and raise something like 200 since it's not inconceivable that he could fold a flush to a jam. (However, he'd never fold a flush to 200 I don't think, and if he has a non-flush he's probably folding to any raise, so 200 is just way better than 100.) And if you do make it 200 and he jams on top of it, you could make a ridiculous hero fold against the nut flush.

But, what do you think? And what about flop and Turn?

A good hand to work on your mental game ---fear of monsters suggests you are focused on results and not game strategy.