$2 NLHE 6-max: 4-bet pot with TT

[Casey55]

4-bet pot with TT
PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 8 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $2.08 (104 bb)
UTG+1: $2.44 (122 bb)
MP: $1.78 (89 bb)
MP+1 (Hero): $3.07 (154 bb)
CO: $3.19 (160 bb)
BU: $1.41 (71 bb)
SB: $2.17 (109 bb)
BB: $1.81 (91 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP+1 with T♦ T♥
3 players fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.06, SB 3-bets to $0.10, 1 fold, Hero 4-bets to $0.30, 1 fold, SB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.68) 3♥ Q♥ 7♦ (2 players)
SB bets $0.33, Hero calls $0.33

Turn: ($1.34) 3♠ (2 players)
SB bets $1.29, Hero calls $1.29

River: ($3.92) K♥ (2 players)
SB bets $0.25 (all-in), Hero calls $0.25

Villain donks half-pot on the flop and I am not sure if this means he is weak or strong, dont some villains do this when they have marginal hands while others do this with a strong range? it confuses me and I think we have to at least call the flop so I do. Neither my opponent or myself should have any 3's in our ranges in a 4-bet pot so the turn changes not much, villain opts for a pot sized bet. Do players often make these bets in these spots with premium made hands ? I mean why so much on such a dry board? what does villain think I could have that would call that size of a bet on this board ? very confusing to me. At this point villain has either the nuts or a draw. the nuts would be QQ, maybe he has KK,AA and some sort of heart draws like AK of hearts? his bluffs would be mainly heart draws but should we even give villains bluffs in these types of spots at 2NL? or does this seem like strictly a value bet 100% of the time?

 

[Hermus]

Pre-Flop:
I think the 4-bet is a little bit out of line. A call is probably fine. Considering sizing he's probably a recreational player. Nevertheless, I think he's going to show up with a lot of suited broadways or better pocket pairs so you're flipping at best and dominated at worst.

Flop:
Very weird line. Under normal circumstances, I would consider TT as a marginal hand looking to get to showdown cheaply. Calling a half pot bet falls in line with that strategy. I don't mind it that much, hoping it checks through the turn and river.

Considering that you would most likely c-bet this flop I also like the idea of re-raising to see where you're at. You basically only improve with a third T on the turn. If villain has it he's probably going to fire again anyway, and you're faced with the same decision again on the turn. Only this time under worse circumstances if another overcard drops. If he doesn't have it you win a nice pot.

Turn:
After calling the flop bet your range is basically capped at TPGK (KQs I guess), JJ, TT maybe 99 and some flush draws. Might as well be face up. You can't really call any for value IMO and considering stack sizes there's no point bluffing. I would fold 100% of my range here.

Questions:

Neither my opponent or myself should have any 3's in our ranges in a 4-bet pot so the turn changes not much

I agree that it's unlikely that he has pocket 33's.

villain opts for a pot sized bet. Do players often make these bets in these spots with premium made hands?

Look at villains aggression factor to make a more informed decision on whether he has it or not. Some really aggressive players just bet every chance they get. If a passive player bets into you all of a sudden he has it more often than not. Recreational players either play way too much or way too little, so base your decisions on the player type.

I mean why so much on such a dry board? what does villain think I could have that would call that size of a bet on this board ?

TT?

At this point villain has either the nuts or a draw. the nuts would be QQ, maybe he has KK,AA and some sort of heart draws like AK of hearts? his bluffs would be mainly heart draws but should we even give villains bluffs in these types of spots at 2NL? or does this seem like strictly a value bet 100% of the time?

If he's playing 100% balanced you're probably about right. Definitely include all the AQ combos though. AA, KK, AKs only if he's never 5-betting.

 

[gustav197poker]

Preflop I agree to 4-bet to get fold equity in BTN. Also SB's min 3-bet is suspect, so an ISO bet makes a lot of sense here. More size is better, in the 4-bet.
On the flop, SB's bet looks mocking. He doesn't represent anything important preflop and now he expects us to think he has set of 3 or something similar.
Undoubtedly the most important point of the hand is the turn. We are in a 4-bet pot and Villain has thrown a min 3-bet in preflop. I honestly don't think this villain does that with all Axs, maybe he could do that with some like AJs and AKs and specifically AJhh and AKhh. So I think we can fold on the turn when we think V was not bluffing when he donk bet OTF.
Greetings.

 

[Casey55]

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 8 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $2.08 (104 bb)
UTG+1: $2.44 (122 bb)
MP: $1.78 (89 bb)
MP+1 (Hero): $3.07 (154 bb)
CO: $3.19 (160 bb)
BU: $1.41 (71 bb)
SB: $2.17 (109 bb)
BB: $1.81 (91 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP+1 with T♦ T♥
3 players fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.06, SB 3-bets to $0.10, 1 fold, Hero 4-bets to $0.30, 1 fold, SB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.68) 3♥ Q♥ 7♦ (2 players)
SB bets $0.33, Hero calls $0.33

Turn: ($1.34) 3♠ (2 players)
SB bets $1.29, Hero calls $1.29

River: ($3.92) K♥ (2 players)
SB bets $0.25 (all-in), Hero calls $0.25

Total pot: $4.42 (Rake: $0.15)

Showdown:
SB shows 7♥ 7♣ (a full house, Sevens full of Threes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: 87%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

MP+1 (Hero) shows T♦ T♥ (two pair, Tens and Threes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 82%, Flop: 13%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

SB wins $4.27

 

[Sidetracked]

I don't think I'm 4 betting TT pf at a full table. And calling down 109 BB effective on a board with 2 overcards to your TT seems a bit optimistic.

 

[loafaBREAD]

Hey there,

I heavily disagree with most of the advice above.

Before I share my thoughts, I want to paraphrase from the book Poker Math that Matters (not to get all pretentious or anything!)...

The two skills needed in poker are
1) making accurate assumptions and
2) making the best decision based on those assumptions.

Alright enough BS, let's go!

Pre: Facing a min 3-bet, the 4-bet is understandable. I am actually against it- against a min 3-bet I like a polarised 4-bet strategy since I believe V's to be quite strong with the min 3-bet and TT doesn't like being 5-bet/shoved on. (A5s, A4s as bluffs, I wouldn't bluff any more than that. I do like your sizing, though)

If your pool is different, please use your best judgement.

Flop: V donk leads 1/2 pot in a 4-bet pot. It's a wet board. When I put V on a donk range, it is a lot of hands betting for protection, with some high equity bluffs thrown in.

So, 99-JJ, KQ, QJ, QTs, AQ no heart, and as 'bluffs/protection' donks, maybe AK on occasion, and Ax of hearts.

Please note that my range is off given his actual holding- this will happen all the time vs fish. It is more important to learn to use logic in decision making than it is to be exactly right about V's holdings.

TT with a heart isn't looking too good against that range. V bets 1/2 pot which is setting up for a turn all-in. TT is near the bottom of our range here, in fact. We have AQ, QQ, KK, AA and AJhh, AThh which are all in better shape here. This is why V's donk is so bad- this board heavily favours you. He is putting in money when, on average, he is behind!

So to exploit this you fold your worst/ no equity hands and you can be aggressive with many other holdings quite liberally.

Takeaways-
1) make sure your continuing range is flexible based on v's bet size (for example, having TT with a heart you can continue vs a 1/4 pot bet). V's half pot donk is large given the SPR (stack to pot ratio) as in 4-bet pots bet sizes actually can get quite small. If you call with TT vs that size, what do you fold? If you determine TT calling on the flop is profitable (perhaps it is!) then it certainly is a fold on the turn.

2) make a note on this V. Mine would look like this: "Min 3! sq from sb 77, flat 4!, donk 1/2 pot Q73hh". in English, that reads "Min 3-bet squeeze from the sb with 77, flat 4-bet and donked 1/2 pot on this board..."

This guys play is pretty bad, I would immediately mark him as a whale. My assumption was that V donks for protection... I still stick to that. It looked like V was afraid of the flush draw or seeing an A or K. Again, make a note and continue.

If V donks the best hand he could possibly have in a spot, then his checking range is super weak.

Exploit this by over cbetting/barreling.

 

[Casey55]

Hey there,

I heavily disagree with most of the advice above.

Before I share my thoughts, I want to paraphrase from the book Poker Math that Matters (not to get all pretentious or anything!)...

The two skills needed in poker are
1) making accurate assumptions and
2) making the best decision based on those assumptions.

Alright enough BS, let's go!

Pre: Facing a min 3-bet, the 4-bet is understandable. I am actually against it- against a min 3-bet I like a polarised 4-bet strategy since I believe V's to be quite strong with the min 3-bet and TT doesn't like being 5-bet/shoved on. (A5s, A4s as bluffs, I wouldn't bluff any more than that. I do like your sizing, though)

If your pool is different, please use your best judgement.

Flop: V donk leads 1/2 pot in a 4-bet pot. It's a wet board. When I put V on a donk range, it is a lot of hands betting for protection, with some high equity bluffs thrown in.

So, 99-JJ, KQ, QJ, QTs, AQ no heart, and as 'bluffs/protection' donks, maybe AK on occasion, and Ax of hearts.

Please note that my range is off given his actual holding- this will happen all the time vs fish. It is more important to learn to use logic in decision making than it is to be exactly right about V's holdings.

TT with a heart isn't looking too good against that range. V bets 1/2 pot which is setting up for a turn all-in. TT is near the bottom of our range here, in fact. We have AQ, QQ, KK, AA and AJhh, AThh which are all in better shape here. This is why V's donk is so bad- this board heavily favours you. He is putting in money when, on average, he is behind!

So to exploit this you fold your worst/ no equity hands and you can be aggressive with many other holdings quite liberally.

Takeaways-
1) make sure your continuing range is flexible based on v's bet size (for example, having TT with a heart you can continue vs a 1/4 pot bet). V's half pot donk is large given the SPR (stack to pot ratio) as in 4-bet pots bet sizes actually can get quite small. If you call with TT vs that size, what do you fold? If you determine TT calling on the flop is profitable (perhaps it is!) then it certainly is a fold on the turn.

2) make a note on this V. Mine would look like this: "Min 3! sq from sb 77, flat 4!, donk 1/2 pot Q73hh". in English, that reads "Min 3-bet squeeze from the sb with 77, flat 4-bet and donked 1/2 pot on this board..."

This guys play is pretty bad, I would immediately mark him as a whale. My assumption was that V donks for protection... I still stick to that. It looked like V was afraid of the flush draw or seeing an A or K. Again, make a note and continue.

If V donks the best hand he could possibly have in a spot, then his checking range is super weak.

Exploit this by over cbetting/barreling.

Thank you for your feedback! very helpful and informative. Thank you everyone who commented ! It can be difficult at 2NL deciphering on whether villain is donking a marginal made hand or a premium made hand. it is beginning to feel like it is marginal made a-lot of the time, I guess if they are doing this type of stuff they will have no balance and should be easy to play against? Maybe it comes down to figuring out the opponent first, some 2nl may donk premiums while others donk marginals.