$2 NL HE 6-max: Jacks - Wild Action

[puzzlefish]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

This is 2NL 888 Snap 6-max fast fold format. My poison of choice for a few fast hands now and then.

BTN 28.5bb
SB 33bb
BB 59.5bb
UTG 107bb
HJ (Hero) 132.5bb with
CO 105bb

Pre-Flop
UTG opens 2bb
HJ (Hero) raises to 5bb
3 folds, BB and UTG call



3-handed to the flop
Pot 15.5bb
BB bets 7.5bb
UTG calls
Hero...?

Spoiler

calls. I would maybe consider raising here if two handed but do not like UTG cold calling in the middle here.

Turn
Pot 38bb

This is where everything suddenly gets very awkward.

BB jams 48bb
UTG jams 94.5bb

Hero..?

Spoiler

folded.

I find that there's sometimes a sense that overcards are good. On a turn like this, would you call this action with QQ, KK, AA? Would you do what UTG did?

 

[primrose]

I think you're missing your hole cards?

 

[puzzlefish]

I think you're missing your hole cards?

Yes, that would help, wouldn't it?

 

[primrose]

Yes, that would help, wouldn't it?

Depends, some people think it's good exercise to always play your entire range, but I'm a shameless advocate for dirty exploitative play and refuse to balance, so I don't care about my range.

anyway onto the hand

Preflop: 3bet is good. 5BB is a little small given the stack size though, I think you should just do the standard 3x and go 6BB.

Flop: Raise. You have to raise. There are so many cards you don't want to see, and this this is low stakes, a 3bet usually means that you can fold. If you just call now, you don't know anything about where you stand.

Spoiler: The cold call makes the raise better, not worse. This is almost always the case; if someone calls, they generally cap their range. UTG would have likely raised QQ+. If it were just the BB, you could consider calling, but with the UTG flat, raising is really mandatory. Calling is a big mistake, imho.

Turn: Now I would fold. It's hard to give both of them hands that you beat. It's also kinda hard to give them hands that beat you, but there are some. BB could have lead the 3, or maybe a small overpair. UTG probably just has a set. There's a remove possibility that UTG has like exactly TT and BB has A8 I guess, but it's a big stretch. You should be behind over 80% of the time.

Spoiler: yeah, good.

Extra Question: AA is marginally better here than JJ, but after both of them jam, I'd fold it as well.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
I think, your 3-bet is far to small. Standard in position is 3X, but that is against normal sizing, and this guy only min-raised. Which in a microstakes games I will enterpret as weak without any other reads. By going small you give him great implied odds to setmine, and you also increase the risk of some goofball behind cold calling your 3-bet, as actually happened. So I would make this not just a little bigger but at a minimum 8BB. Let them pay to see a flop, when you have a premium hand.

Flop
The issue here is, that because of your preflop sizing, both opponents can have all the sets, and the Stack to Pot ratio is 7 against UTG, which is a bit deep to stack off an overpair, especially one thats not the nut overpair. Perhaps we can assume, that both opponents would have 4-bet AA or KK, but they can have QQ in their ranges, so thats another hand, you lose to. So I am not nessesarely willing to play for stacks here against UTG, and for that reason I would just call. Your hand does benefit from protection, but with this action its highly unlikly either opponent has AK/AQ/KQ, which are the main hands, you want to fold out.

Turn
If UTG had folded, then this would be a snap call. BB started with a broken stack, and he cold called a 3-bet out of position, so he is just some random 2NL fish and could have almost anything including the favourite fish hand A8. However its troublesome, that UTG has also stacked off, because if he is any type of player, he should not be doing this with 99 or TT. Now maybe he is, because this is 2NL, and even the regs are bad. But at 10NL this would definitely be a good fold, and even at 2NL its an ok fold. I would not fold QQ+ though, because the higher your pair, the higher the chance, that UTG also has an overpair, and that its worse than yours.

 

[Station_Master]

As noted already, 3bet too small. Post flop you played fine, already on the flop its not looking good but you will be ahead enough of the time. Turn is easy fold UTG can easily have sets or a slowplayed overpair

 

[fundiver199]

Also on a more personal note you have been a member of CC for 7 years, so you are clearly not new to poker. I dont know, how much experience you have with cash games, but being able to fold JJ as an overpair in a 3-bet pot show, you have at least some idea about, whats going on. And for that reason I will advise you to move up to 10NL, if there is any way, you can find money for a $300 starting bankroll for that limit. There are still plenty of fish at 10NL, and especially at 888 Poker the rake is a killer at 2NL and 5NL.

 

[primrose]

Preflop
I think, your 3-bet is far to small. Standard in position is 3X, but that is against normal sizing, and this guy only min-raised. Which in a microstakes games I will enterpret as weak without any other reads. By going small you give him great implied odds to setmine, and you also increase the risk of some goofball behind cold calling your 3-bet, as actually happened. So I would make this not just a little bigger but at a minimum 8BB. Let them pay to see a flop, when you have a premium hand.

This is actually a really good point and I'd probably have made a mistake but just flicking in an automatic 3x raise. I agree that with the minraise, you should go a little bigger than 6BB.

 

[primrose]

Flop
The issue here is, that because of your preflop sizing, both opponents can have all the sets, and the Stack to Pot ratio is 7 against UTG, which is a bit deep to stack off an overpair, especially one thats not the nut overpair. Perhaps we can assume, that both opponents would have 4-bet AA or KK, but they can have QQ in their ranges, so thats another hand, you lose to. So I am not nessesarely willing to play for stacks here against UTG, and for that reason I would just call. Your hand does benefit from protection, but with this action its highly unlikly either opponent has AK/AQ/KQ, which are the main hands, you want to fold out.

I don't think "I don't want to play for stacks, therefore I don't raise" is a good deduction. if you don't raise, Villain will just continue to value bet a whole bunch of hands, including stuff like A8. So if they fire a chunky but not huge value bet on the Turn and River, you probably have to call both. Whereas if you raise raise the Flop, then a set will 3bet you, and then you can fold. I think the raise helps you get away from the hand.

In this case they did you the favor of going all-in on the Turn, but that's not generally gonna happen.

 

[fundiver199]

I don't think "I don't want to play for stacks, therefore I don't raise" is a good deduction. if you don't raise, Villain will just continue to value bet a whole bunch of hands, including stuff like A8. So if they fire a chunky but not huge value bet on the Turn and River, you probably have to call both.

Which is completely fine, since I am ok playing for stacks against the donk in the blinds. Its only UTG, I am a little worried about, since he started with a full stack and is likely a better player. If I overcall on the flop, and SB bet again, then UTG might decide to get out of the way. And if something like this instead happen, I can get away having lost only 7.5BB postflop.

 

[puzzlefish]

Ok, I will work on remembering to raise bigger over limp opens. I personally do not like playing JJ as an overpair in these situations, with no draws. I don't know if it would be any better with a larger pot in the middle on the flop. It's too easy to lose entire stacks to a better overpair or get set mined. Here is what happened this time:

 

[puzzlefish]

Flop: Raise. You have to raise. There are so many cards you don't want to see, and this this is low stakes, a 3bet usually means that you can fold. If you just call now, you don't know anything about where you stand.

This is actually something I have been getting away from, because what happens then if I just get called by one or both? You are hoping for a 3bet to give you a hint of whether you are ahead or behind. But that doesn't guarantee that you don't get a cold call. And a cold call on a dry board feels very bad because your opponents likely are not there because of their draws.

 

[primrose]

A cold call is the result you're hoping for! If you get cold-called, then they've capped their ranges, and now you can value bet more. Depending on situation and feel, either check once and value bet the River, or even value bet the Turn. The problem with the Turn bet is that then they often fold, so the maximally greedy play is often to do it on the River. Both both are okay.

 

[primrose]

Here is what happened this time:

Okay so it was actually a case where AA and JJ would have played differently. I still think you ran into the weaker part of your opponent's ranges here after jam-jam; more often than not they'll be stronger than TT and QQ. Though of course even as-is, folding was good.

I personally do not like playing JJ as an overpair in these situations, with no draws. I don't know if it would be any better with a larger pot in the middle on the flop. It's too easy to lose entire stacks to a better overpair or get set mined.

I think you gotta press your edge and get greedy with JJ if you flop an overpair, as a general rule. In fact I think you should usually play it more aggressively than QQ, KK, AA because it's more vulnerable.

 

[fundiver199]

I think, JJ is to in between to raise on the flop here. When it goes donk, call, we are in a situation, where we are either far ahead or far behind with JJ, because as I said already, its pretty unlikely, BB donked out with just two overcards to the board and equally unlikely, that UTG called such hands with Hero - the preflop 3-bettor - still left to act behind him. "Raising for information" or as a sort of stop raise (to make them check the turn) seem to be an old school live poker play, and maybe it can have some merit in certain live games, but online I am not a fan of it.

The second hand in this 4 hand compilation is a good example of, why I dont like that kind of play. In a multiway pot Mike Matusow raise top pair bad kicker on the flop. And while it worked amazingly well on the flop getting a better hand to fold and a worse hands to call, it also set the stage for, what happened later. Because getting action Mike Matusow now liked his hand so little, that he not only checked back the turn but also folded, what was now the best hand to a river bet.

 

[puzzlefish]

A cold call is the result you're hoping for! If you get cold-called, then they've capped their ranges, and now you can value bet more. Depending on situation and feel, either check once and value bet the River, or even value bet the Turn. The problem with the Turn bet is that then they often fold, so the maximally greedy play is often to do it on the River. Both both are okay.

What are you setting UTG's range to on this board if they cold call a 3bet from HJ on the flop? You're pretty much hoping they have AK or AQ?

 

[Station_Master]

What are you setting UTG's range to on this board if they cold call a 3bet from HJ on the flop? You're pretty much hoping they have AK or AQ?

I think you would be hoping they have 99 or TT, but anyway i disagree that they are capped if they just call. Spr is low, board is dry, no need to fastplay a set or AA

 

[primrose]

What are you setting UTG's range to on this board if they cold call a 3bet from HJ on the flop? You're pretty much hoping they have AK or AQ?

A8, 99, TT, broadways w backdoor flush that got stubborn, 98s, 87s

 

[puzzlefish]

I think, JJ is to in between to raise on the flop here. When it goes donk, call, we are in a situation, where we are either far ahead or far behind with JJ, because as I said already, its pretty unlikely, BB donked out with just two overcards to the board and equally unlikely, that UTG called such hands with Hero - the preflop 3-bettor - still left to act behind him. "Raising for information" or as a sort of stop raise (to make them check the turn) seem to be an old school live poker play, and maybe it can have some merit in certain live games, but online I am not a fan of it.

Would you raise with QQ?

This hand was played so weirdly by the villains that I really don't know what to think about it.

I think you would be hoping they have 99 or TT, but anyway i disagree that they are capped if they just call. Spr is low, board is dry, no need to fastplay a set or AA

I would tend to agree about the capping. I do not know if 99 and TT would even want to continue. You think they would?

 

[primrose]

I think you would be hoping they have 99 or TT, but anyway i disagree that they are capped if they just call. Spr is low, board is dry, no need to fastplay a set or AA

I agree that there is no need to fasplay a set, but most people do it anyway. The raise wouldn't be good against people who slow play a lot... like me!

 

[fundiver199]

Would you raise with QQ?

Dont see a reason to have any raising range, when BB have basically made the C-bet for us, and we have position and can easily get the rest of the money in on the turn and river, if we want to. So I would play my entire range as a call or fold in this situation.

 

[primrose]

I think, JJ is to in between to raise on the flop here. When it goes donk, call, we are in a situation, where we are either far ahead or far behind with JJ, because as I said already, its pretty unlikely, BB donked out with just two overcards to the board and equally unlikely, that UTG called such hands with Hero - the preflop 3-bettor - still left to act behind him. "Raising for information" or as a sort of stop raise (to make them check the turn) seem to be an old school live poker play, and maybe it can have some merit in certain live games, but online I am not a fan of it.

Isnt micro stakes Cash generally close to live poker? This isn't 25ct/50ct, it's 1ct/2ct.

 

[puzzlefish]

Fast fold 6-max tends to be more nitty

 

[fundiver199]

Isnt micro stakes Cash generally close to live poker? This isn't 25ct/50ct, it's 1ct/2ct.

2NL is definitely a soft game. But apart from having some very bad players in it, I am not sure, it play all that similar to low stakes live games. For obvious reasons people are not "money scared", when they play for $2, the pace is faster online regardless of stakes, regs still multitable, and of course there are no live tells. And as OP say, this was a Zoom style game, which also tend to play a little different in general.

 

[fundiver199]

This hand was played so weirdly by the villains that I really don't know what to think about it.

To be honest they both had exactly the kind of hands, I would expect. BB is a fish with a broken stack, so he cold called your 3-bet out of position with TT and then donked out on the flop, when he flopped an overpair, because he was scared to get drawn out on and thought, he had the best hand. UTG just called (and also just called preflop), because you could have KK or AA, but when BB jammed the turn, QQ was to strong for UTG to get away from, so he went with it.