$2 NL HE 6-max: AKo fold on SB instead 4bet(?!)

[georgi krastev]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

Well, when the action come to me, i was thinking: Naah, no way to shove with this (The BIG slick). And i just fold - go to another hand. I did't know nothing about this players, later (down below, the pics) i see this.

(Anyways, at todays session if i deside to shove (preflop) it will be like this one, for example.)

So, what you will do here(?) (without making decisions from the development of the hand to the river, which is revealed now), just action before the flop.

(1) Call.
(2) 4bet.
(3) Shove.
(4) Fold.

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[Station_Master]

Against 2 short stackers, 4bet shove. In between the folds and the equity when called I would expect this to be the most profitable play

 

[Aballinamion]

I agree with Station Master: versus two broken stacks we are shoving almost always.

 

[Ace of Spad3s]

@ Station master
@ Aballinamion

Can any of you guys explain as to why this, mathematically, would be the most profitable play to 4bet shove?

My first reaction reading this was that this was a good fold. You still have to hit. I have difficulty playing these kind of hands after not hitting anything on flop. And facing 3bet aggression, my experience of 4betting such hands have led to ugly situations.

 

[Station_Master]

@ Station master
@ Aballinamion

Can any of you guys explain as to why this, mathematically, would be the most profitable play to 4bet shove?

My first reaction reading this was that this was a good fold. You still have to hit. I have difficulty playing these kind of hands after not hitting anything on flop. And facing 3bet aggression, my experience of 4betting such hands have led to ugly situations.

Because x% of the time they both fold and you pick up 14bb.

Other times one or both call but you will always tend to have good equity versus the calling range, perhaps 45% or so. In these instances (say v 50bb stack) you risk 49.5 to win 100bb or so after rake. On average winning 45bb, so losing 4.5bb on average.

Let's say they fold 33% of the time and you get a call 67%. You win 0.33 x 14 + 0.67 x -4.5 = 1.6bb

So on average winning 1.6bb by shoving v 0bb from folding.

Of course there are plenty of assumptions in this and you can play about with different numbers and villain calling ranges to see. E.g. if villain2 is only 3betting super strong hands then your fold equity and equity when called go down.

Obviously the fold % and equity when called numbers are linked, e.g. if they call off regularly you might even get over 50% equity (or 33% if it goes threeways) as they might call off AQ, AJ etc.

 

[Aballinamion]

@ Station master
@ Aballinamion

Can any of you guys explain as to why this, mathematically, would be the most profitable play to 4bet shove?

My first reaction reading this was that this was a good fold. You still have to hit. I have difficulty playing these kind of hands after not hitting anything on flop. And facing 3bet aggression, my experience of 4betting such hands have led to ugly situations.

I think that StationMaster explained perfectly the mathematical reasoning behind this idea.
When I’m playing NLHE 2, if my opponent has = or < 50 BB I’m always pushing all-in with AKo: if it happens that I lose, it’s not that much and most of times broken stacks are pushing AJ, KJ, K8s!! (as the example).
But it all depends on many factors such as mathematics and our history with villain.
Yesterday I was playing cash and opened from EP AKo. A player 3-bets to 9.5 BB in front of me and another player in BU shoved 67 BB: I insta folded my AKo. Why?!?
Because it was more than 50 BB at stake and I wasn’t the last one to speak. If there wasn’t another player in front of me, I would’ve called but I just let this one pass and moved on.
I returned playing cash a few weeks ago and many players have no clue about 3-bet and 4-bet sizing, this is a great tell of whether we should enter a pot by jamming or not.
For example, it comes in fold and I open from SB 3 BB for stealing: BB/villain 3-bets to 12 BB! It doesn’t make any sense for villain has position over the SB, why using such a large sizing?
Or I 3-bet bluff with A2s-A5s and villain 4-bets to 36 BB!!! I would never call this neither shove unless I have AA or at least AKs! Even when I have KK I’m just calling because once there is 30% of our stack invested, we could already jam it.

As a rule of thumb observe with minutest care stack sizing and raise sizing: some players will open raise 2x and other will open raise 4x. We cannot use the same chart/calling range for both, we must adapt to the situation.
I’m almost never calling from BB when players raise to 3x, 3.5x, 4x or higher and when I call I have a very strong hand that didn’t want to 3-bet.
On the flip side I call a lot from the BB when it comes a sizing of 2x or 2.5x.
At NLHE 2 Zoom, I barely 4-bet: players are 3-betting most of times 5% range so what’s the point of 4-betting? To get a shove on the face? Nope, we must play accordingly situation and pay attention to details that many players ignore, such as stack sizing and opening/3-bet/4-bet sizing.

 

[Ace of Spad3s]

Thanks for the replies guys, that helps me understand when I should or shouldn't shove with AKs. Really appreciate it!

 

[blueskies]

It's villain dependent. If you feel like you are up against strength in a multiway situation (like at least 3), it's ok to toss AK sometimes against big aggression regs. Often you are up against a PP and another guy with either an A or K, which removes outs from you.

Would you commit your stack preflop with AK vs. AQ vs. 99? I wouldn't. I fold and look for another spot.

 

[Station_Master]

It's villain dependent. If you feel like you are up against strength in a multiway situation (like at least 3), it's ok to toss AK sometimes against big aggression regs. Often you are up against a PP and another guy with either an A or K, which removes outs from you.

Would you commit your stack preflop with AK vs. AQ vs. 99? I wouldn't. I fold and look for another spot.

Pretty sure you would be getting more than the required 33% equity there so folding would be a mistake. I would be happy to get it in with AK there, you have to be fine with taking your equity in cash games

 

[fundiver199]

As others have said, this is an easy 4-bet jam against two cap stacks. The fact, you would have lost to both of them this time, does not matter.

 

[blueskies]

Pretty sure you would be getting more than the required 33% equity there so folding would be a mistake. I would be happy to get it in with AK there, you have to be fine with taking your equity in cash games

You'll need to be able to read the situation and who you are up against. Sometimes you won't have the 33% equity. Often it's in the mid 30s, which for me personally I'd rather take my shots elsewhere against certain players.

(To clarify this is not counting the money you already committed)

 

[fundiver199]

Often it's in the mid 30s, which for me personally I'd rather take my shots elsewhere against certain players.

The idea of avoiding marginal high variance spots can be valid in tournaments, if you have a skill edge on the table. But its not valid in cash games. In cash games we need to take on any spot, thats even marginally profitable after rake.