Ok another one........ by Casino.us

[tenbob]

Live game, blinds at 100-200 level 3, starting stack 2500, only 4 players to this hand so ill concentrate on these.

Folded around to the C/O, decent player, had been known to bluff at co-ordinated boards. He has the big stack at 4000(ish)

C/O~ Min Raises
Button (Tenbob) get dealt [9h] [9c]~ Calls
SB (table rock) chip stack 1800 ~ Calls
BB (No reads) chip stack almost intack at 2500 ~ Calls

Flop
[Ah] [Kh] [3c]

It get checked around to me, pot size is standing at 1600. What do you do ???

 

[colin_147]

Nice post TB

I fold. 2 overcards and flush draw against me, and I still have a decent stack.

Wait for a better hand.

I reckon you checked!!

 

[twizzybop]

Definate check here.. Never mind the flush draw.. 2 over cards to your pocket 9's. You may get out cheap or a free card on the turn aiming for the set.

 

[Freakakanus]

Waiter.....Check Please! Hope you catch set on the turn.

 

[Stick66]

No way, man. Check would be OK for a smaller pot but not here. 3x BB bet for info. You could get a K to fold or more. Pot's too big to let 2nd or 3rd pair draw for more. You can fold to a raise and any callers will likely give you another free card on the turn.

(Edit: You didn't say how big your stack was. May or may not make a difference in the size of your bet.)

 

[twizzybop]

Whoa.. wait. mr sticker is onto something here.. all checked around to bob who is on the button....most of the time it means 1 of 2 things.. that nobody has hit anything or someone is slow playing/looking for a check-raise move.

You would almost have to bet here, but then again a free card still looks very tempting. I would bet based apon position and that everyone checked to you. I didn't really read the fact that you were on the button.

 

[Bill_Hollorian]

No Way...

Check then fold

You need to be done here. THe only hands calling, have you crushed.
The only hands raising are on a huge draw which will crush you

Gotta be done here.

Bill

 

[F Paulsson]

SB and BB checked to the preflop raiser, who did not bet. It's perfectly possible that one of them checked with the intention of raising.

The pot of 800 isn't quite big enough for me to feel that it's worth getting myself committed just yet with this hand. I'd check, hoping really hard to catch a 9. Which brings me to my larger overall point:

When you cold called preflop, you had to realize that more people were going to join you to see the flop - otherwise 99 is definitely a good enough hand to raise the CO. But since you just called, you made the decision to play your hand multiway, meaning that a set was almost the only way for you to take home the pot. With this flop, I think you need to keep that mentality, despite the fact that it's checked to you.

 

[chicubs1616]

No way, man. Check would be OK for a smaller pot but not here. 3x BB bet for info. You could get a K to fold or more. Pot's too big to let 2nd or 3rd pair draw for more. You can fold to a raise and any callers will likely give you another free card on the turn.

IMO this is horrible advice. If your stack is lets say 10k then this can be tolerated. But I am going to assume that his stack is somewhere in the 2000-4000 range. If you bet 600 as you suggest, this is commiting a large portion of your stack (1/6-1/7) to pick up a medium sized pot. If you bet and are raised you are surely beaten, and if your bet is called, you are also most liekly behind, with the exception of a flush draw.

Your idea of a free card is wrong. Betting the flop to give you a free card on the turn may seem like a fancy play, but here it is unnecessary. You can take a free card without putting any chips into the pot. Here, you are VERY susceptible to a check-raise and you will almost ALWAYS fold to a re-raise.

With a big stack, a bet of 1/2-3/4 the pot to try and take away the pot is understandable. However, with a medium-sized stack, which I am assuming, there is no reason to bet here with two overs and simply check and take the free card.

 

[Stick66]

The pot of 800 isn't quite big enough for me to feel that it's worth getting myself committed just yet with this hand.

I thought he said the pot was 1600.

Your idea of a free card is wrong. Betting the flop to give you a free card on the turn may seem like a fancy play, but here it is unnecessary. You can take a free card without putting any chips into the pot. Here, you are VERY susceptible to a check-raise and you will almost ALWAYS fold to a re-raise.

Fine, then bet a little smaller. Maybe 450. But the check is used more times for info in a state of weakness than for raising. The pre-flop raiser or someone else might have Ace-rag suited and is afraid of a better kicker or even AK. They could even have QQ and be afraid of any Aces or Kings. A bet could get them to fold, but it would at least get more info. With 3 checks ahead of him, the ball is teed up, baby! That 1600 in the pot could be a game-breaker.

(We still don't know how big TB's stack is.)

 

[F Paulsson]

I thought he said the pot was 1600.

Sorry, my reading skills are clearly off this morning. You're right.

I'd still pick the free card off and try to spike a 9, though. For exactly the same reason that the pot is big enough to warrant me trying to take it down with 99 is unfortunately precisely why someone with an A or a K probably will call a raise.

We have another thing going against us here, and that is the fact that people expect the button to steal when he's checked to. Betting here does not necessarily signify strength.

But now that I know the pot to be 1600, I believe the correct decision is either an all-in push or a fold. A small bet is not going to protect your hand if you're ahead, and it's not going to make a better hand fold. Consider the range of cards that are dangerous to you here:

Any T, J or Q (not only for the others to spike pair, but for inside straights) any heart could be a danger card, and even a 3 could put you behind. 21 cards - out of 47 - that will make the turn difficult to navigate. And this is presuming that you're ahead even now!

I'd check, hoping for a 9. If a safe card falls and it's checked to you again, go ahead and make a ~500 bet, maybe.

Exercise for everyone: Any guesses as to why CO decided to check this flop? What does he have?

 

[Stick66]

Any T, J or Q (not only for the others to spike pair, but for inside straights) any heart could be a danger card, and even a 3 could put you behind. 21 cards - out of 47 - that will make the turn difficult to navigate. And this is presuming that you're ahead even now!

I'd check, hoping for a 9. If a safe card falls and it's checked to you again, go ahead and make a ~500 bet, maybe.

Exercise for everyone: Any guesses as to why CO decided to check this flop? What does he have?

You know FP? You are right. Any drawing QJ's, JT's, or hearts might call a bet since the pot IS larger. The odds are be better than if the pot were smaller. FP's the man.

(Now FP, say "Hi" to me the next time you play me at FTP or no more compliments! )

My guess for CO: With the pre-flop min raise, I'd say either JJ (the A & K scare him) OR AK (he's slowplaying, but wouldn't the 2-flush scare him?).

 

[tenbob]

My guess for CO: With the pre-flop min raise, I'd say either JJ (the A & K scare him) OR AK (he's slowplaying, but wouldn't the 2-flush scare him?).

Sorry my stack size was about 3500 (ish) this hand happened about 3 months ago, and i just found it in my notes yesterday.


My guuess for the CO was also JJ or QQ, I figured that no-one would slow play this board. My guess was that he wanted a free card, and the speed that it was checked around to me was also a factor in my decision here.

Looking at the players, I figured a small(ish) bet would take down the pot, with the intention of folding to a check raise, or at the very least get me heads up with the CO. A pot of ~1600 i felt was worth a shot, if i bet 500 at it, i still had a healthy stack, with the likelyhood of a few folds. Taking down the pot here by maybe attempting to represent the flush draw or the ace. After all i called a raise, had position, and taking down this pot put me in an excellent postion in what was a TOP HEAVY payout structure, with a stack of 4.5K. Going out in last or in 3rd here makes no difference.

Betting here is effectively a bluff......

So here is what I done.......

Tenbob~Bets 500
SB~ Folds
BB~ Folds (starting to look good)
CO goes to the tank for about 2 minutes and makes what looks like a very reluctant call

Pot size stands at 2600

TURN

[Jh]

The CO's check is instant......... What do I do now...... I had him pinned on JJ. He dosnt have a heart if thats the situation, and I've picked up a flush draw.

 

[F Paulsson]

(Now FP, say "Hi" to me the next time you play me at FTP or no more compliments! )

Eeek! Sir, yes, sir!

I so rarely pay attention to the names of the people I play with (I tend to look at their stats rather than their names ) that I haven't actually made the connection. I have, however, noticed your name in PokerTracker afterwards and remembered wondering when I played you, heh. I'll keep an eye out from now on.

 

[F Paulsson]

TB: This is an extremely uncomfortable position for you, but you have learned a thing or two about his range.

1. He doesn't have AK, AA or KK. It's very unlikely that he would not have checkraised you seeing that the other two had already folded anyway.
2. Whatever that jack did to his hand meant that he was prepared for it, or at least you seem to indicate this (with the instant check).

What does it mean that he's prepared for it? Well, let's see:

* He could be holding A-rag and intends to call you down, but isn't willing to make it any more expensive than he has to.
* He could be on a flushdraw and has already decided to checkraise you if he hits
* He could be on a straightdraw and has already decided to checkraise you if he hits and to check if he doesn't
* He has a medium/large pair and has decided to check/call you down with it, and to checkraise if he hits a set.
* He has K-something and likes to think that you're bluffing.

I find the flush draw extremely unlikely. With that pot size and your bet, calling is not a difficult decision, especially not when he has - like you - a decent stack left. The other possibilities I find about as likely, each. What does that mean for you?

25% of the time he has an ace and will call you down (or raise if he pairs his kicker)
25% of the time he has a king and will call you down, unless you scare him off (or he pairs his kicker)
25% of the time he has either hit his straight, or a pair larger than yours

You're, in other words, behind at least 75% of the time.

The positive aspect of this turn card is that if another heart hits the river, there are now only two cards in the deck can give him a higher flush. Your hand's value increased somewhat due to this.

In my opinion, your best (only?) chance of winning this hand unimproved on the river is if you push all-in on the turn, as it's extremely unlikely that you're ahead now, so you need him to fold the best hand. With a hand like K8, JT, TT or QQ, he might fold. I wouldn't believe an ace to lay it down on the turn though, especially not with a decent heart kicker.

Check and hope for the T of hearts, which would make your hand the second nuts.

 

[tenbob]

I had to agree here FP, i was very uncomfortable at this stage of the hand. Usually when i decide to make a play at a pot, Ill play it like i have the nuts. This time however i got the feeling that i was well and truely beat.

Anyway I palmed 2 red 500 chips to try and get a reaction from out CO, he didnt seem at all botherd by the prospect of another bet, so i think here i made the sensible decision and checked.

Turn
[2h]

Giving us a board of
[Ah] [Kh] [3c] [Jh] [2h]

ID backed into a hand . So how powerful was my flush ? Well that was about to be put to the test.

CO Bets ALL-IN

Ok folks this time its for all my chips, winning this makes me huge chip leader, losing sends me to the car for a nice drive home. Whats your play ?

 

[colin_147]

mmmm, 2 cards you lose to!

Such a tough decision. There is no doubt that judging by the instant check he has a flush of some description. If you stick with your original thought (JJ or QQ) then you lose to a H.

Its hard to decide what to do as the guy doesnt seem to be value betting. Is he a good player? Does he usually make all in moves when he has the best hand?

Personally without knowing any style, I would fold.

I put him on A? Jh

 

[robwhufc]

I put him on A? Jh

The same Jh that fell on the turn? I wonder whether you need glasses sometimes Colin

Tenbob, personally I agree with a lot of the other posters that you should have let this one go and saved you a hell of a lot of aggro. Still being in the hand at that stage? I'd put my hand in my pocket to find my car keys and call - if you're beat you're beat, but the 2h definately helped you and may not have helped him.

 

[tenbob]

The [Jh] is on the board, so really the cards that beat me are [10h] and [Qh], so i have the 3rd nut hand, not a bad return at all considering that we've being playing heads up since the flop.

The all-in bet seemed totally strange to me here, he wants me to fold, why ? At this stage i was completly baffled, if he had the [Qh] why not value bet here ? He could still have probably squezzed another 500 chips out of me, and a bet like this would actually make me MORE LIKELY to fold. The whole speedy checking thing still had me **** sure that he had hit his JJ on the turn. QQ was the hand that i was still afraid of, but the possibility of [Qh] was still 50/50 (if my read was correct from the off).

Trust me this early in the game i was dreading what to do, i had gotten the best hand i could have hoped for. Would you call this ?

 

[colin_147]

I meant the 10, been a long day Rob!

I still fold

 

[colin_147]

The same Jh that fell on the turn? I wonder whether you need glasses sometimes Colin

Tenbob, personally I agree with a lot of the other posters that you should have let this one go and saved you a hell of a lot of aggro. Still being in the hand at that stage? I'd put my hand in my pocket to find my car keys and call - if you're beat you're beat, but the 2h definately helped you and may not have helped him.

Still being in the hand at this stage? The only difference between the now and the flop is an extra 500 chips, so why you would chuck the lot in now in the hope you are winning?

if I had the attitude of "I might throw the lot in if I hit runner - runner flush" then I would have played the flop more aggressive and bet the turn

 

[robwhufc]

The all-in bet seemed totally strange to me here, he wants me to fold, why ?

Does he want you to fold, or does he want you to think he wants you to fold (and therefore call)? If he thinks / knows you're a good and would think hand through "presumably" thinking option 1, then maybe the 2nd option is more likely?

Based on my usual rule of "do the opposite Colin147 suggests" I would call.

 

[tenbob]

Certain hands stick in my mind over the weeks and this way one of them. I forgot to mention the decisision maker on this hand, his all-in bet was a totally aggressive directional bet, he threw over his chips towards me, and proceeded with the "stare of death". The please fold, please, .......

I decided once this bet went in that i was ahead, and my call was in fact a fairly quick one.

Our villian showed [Ac] [Ad] for his flopped set, and actually reached for the pot before he was corrected, out villian never spotted the last flush card on the board, he was too concerned about slowplaying and extracting my chips.

Ok my play was marginal here, i put in a positional bet on the flop, pretty standard for me, and i was fully prepared to fold to a raise. He checked the turn expecting me to bet, with i didnt so he let me back into a hand. Brutal play on his part. He was left with ~500 chips, which he lost on the next hand, I became the monster chip leader and took the $$.

Interesting discussion though folks...... Ill do another one when i play a hand that merits it,..

 

[colin_147]

Wow, he played that hand pretty bad but fantastic call TB and nice win too!

He was prob expecting the check raise on the turn

 

[tenbob]

He was prob expecting the check raise on the turn

More than likely, but in fairness he had the chance to take down a decent pot on the flop with a check raise, on a very dangerious board. The slow-play here was savage bad play on his part. The win here was not so much good play on my part, but bad play on his.