Heads up hand

[Dorkus Malorkus]

BB varies between tight-aggro and loose-aggro. While 3 handed BB has been playing back at another aggressive player's raises with pushes (the other player was the short stack though), but hasn't actually shown down any noticeable junk so far (though he hasn't shown down much, final table has been pretty tight throughout). This is the first hand heads-up.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2000 (2 handed) converter

Hero (t41848)
BB (t25652)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6c, As.
Hero raises to t6000, BB raises to t25552 (all-in)

Call or fold? Is it even a close decision? What range do you put him on? I don't know why but when it comes to heads up I often go braindead, so input appreciated. Results to come.

 

[Grumbledook]

I think you gotta fold really, a call in a gamble.

You may well be ahead with A high but he could have 2 cards higher than your six which leaves you only the aces to should he nail one of them.

Worst yet he may already have a pair, or even Ax higher than you.

It would mean you are about even in chips, you having the slight lead. Depends how you feel about your heads up play.

I'm guessing that you called and he got lucky on something like hitting a straight?

Its hard to play against someone who pushes when you raise. I'm still trying to figure the best way to play against it.

 

[woodsy44]

"PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2000 (2 handed) converter

Hero (t41848)
BB (t25652)"

Sorry to ask but am new to all the terms and lingo used on this forum. What is the 't' in "BB is t2000"?
Also what does hero mean?
May sound silly but cos i dont know, this thread doesnt make sense.
Cheers

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

No problem.

It's lingo from the hand converter (https://www.cardschat.com/t55279-hand-converter.html)

Basically t = number of tournament chips a player has, Hero = person playing the hand (i.e. me).

The other "names" just indicate the position of the other players, so "BB" is the player in the big blind. In games with more players you get other abbreviations, for example "UTG" is under the gun (the first to act), "CO" is cutoff (player to the right of the button), and so on. There's an option on the converter to stick with the original player's names I think, but I prefer to leave it off for the sake of anonymity (other people's, not mine ).

 

[xdmanx007]

FOLD! Not worth it. Pretty much a nobrainer. Blinds are still too small to warrant a call here. There will be better opportunities later on. Even if he is just firing with 9,2 off he picked the correct time to do it. Gotta FOLD! Regardless of the outcome you should have folded!

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

When I actually look at the range I put him on in hindsight it probably is a fold, but even in the minute or so I spent umming and ahhing I didn't think this through.

Way behind: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, 77, 66, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A9, A8
Roughly even vs: 55, 44, 33, 22, KQ, QJ, JT
Ahead of: KJ, KT, K9, K8, K7, K5, K4, K3, K2, QJ
Way ahead of: A6, A5, A4, A3, A2, K6

Results are quite amusing though. I don't mind posting hands I got the better of if I feel my decision was questionable, as I like to think I'm not results-oriented - a lot of late tourney play is just good/bad luck and timing anyway...

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Results:

Hero calls t19552.

Flop: (t51104) 2h, 4s, Tc (2 players)

Turn: (t51104) Ah (2 players)

River: (t51104) 9d (2 players)

Final Pot: t51104

Results below:
Hero has 6c As (one pair, aces).
BB has 2c 7c (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Hero wins t51104.

 

[robwhufc]

FOLD! Not worth it. Pretty much a nobrainer. Blinds are still too small to warrant a call here. There will be better opportunities later on. Even if he is just firing with 9,2 off he picked the correct time to do it. Gotta FOLD! Regardless of the outcome you should have folded!

Fold an ace in head to head? Sorry, I really don't understand this.

 

[xdmanx007]

Fold an ace in head to head? Sorry, I really don't understand this.

Fold a ragged ace when your opponent pushes OVER 4x your raise and the raise is most of your chips. Understand now?

 

[robwhufc]

Fold a ragged ace when your opponent pushes OVER 4x your raise and the raise is most of your chips. Understand now?

Well hopefully one day we'll be head to head against each other. Do you just sit there waiting for AA? How long do you think you'll survive H2H folding hands like A6?

Heads up A6 is a premium hand, you're unlikely to get a better one. There was an article on site recently that said you should either go all in or fold in head to head. I don't know if I would quite go that far, but how many times do you see head to head confrontations bet down to the river? (answer never). How many hands is your sole opponent going to have that are better than A6? Not many. How many are going to be worse? Loads and loads.

If you fold, he'll go all in next hand. Fold again, he's all in next hand. Soon he's in front, and bit later he's won.

As I said, hopefully one day we'll lock horns at H2H.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

This is the thing, when someone does it in the very first hand heads-up, it's hard to know what to do because it's hard to specify their range (look at what a horrible job I did of it ). If it continues and he is pushing every hand, I can adjust his range suitably to any 2 cards, if he does it 50% of the time I can loosen it too, something which is not reasonable in hand 1 heads up in most situations.

In the end I called more because I'd seen him push over the top of raises one too many times 3 and 4-handed (not every time, but it would have been statistically highly improbable he had the cards to do so every time that he did so) than because of the unwavering faith I held in my A6o.

This is interesting though, keep discussing. I'm always interested in how people view marginal heads-up situations.

 

[robwhufc]

Hopefully someone on site will be able to say how many possible different starting hands there are. If you can quickly work out how many hands could be better than yours you'll know whether to call or not. I think it's wrong to assume someone playing H2H has a monster hand if they go all-in. Personally A6 is an absolute no brainer call - opponents playing style, size of blinds etc is completely irrelivent in my opinion (p.s congrats on winning tourney).

 

[xdmanx007]

Well hopefully one day we'll be head to head against each other. Do you just sit there waiting for AA? How long do you think you'll survive H2H folding hands like A6?

Heads up A6 is a premium hand, you're unlikely to get a better one. There was an article on site recently that said you should either go all in or fold in head to head. I don't know if I would quite go that far, but how many times do you see head to head confrontations bet down to the river? (answer never). How many hands is your sole opponent going to have that are better than A6? Not many. How many are going to be worse? Loads and loads.

If you fold, he'll go all in next hand. Fold again, he's all in next hand. Soon he's in front, and bit later he's won.

As I said, hopefully one day we'll lock horns at H2H.

*cough* Be careful what you wish for, that wish is easily granted!

 

[diabloblanco]

Hmmm, what in the world are you going to call a push like that for with Ace-rag unsuited? The first hand of heads up and he comes over a 6K raise for all his chips and you're holding A-rag, you fold. Easy laydown. As it stands you are a 'dog to far too many hands to call him down here with such a weak hand. Sure its heads up and the value of unsuited any-ace is raised, but its hardly a super hand. If he's holding any pocket pair or any ace with a higher kicker (which wouldn't be hard to outkick your 6) and you don't improve, you just went from a commanding chiplead to crippled.

I don't know about you, but I am sure I can find a better spot to call off 25K in chips than right here. Besides a quick all-in bully move is common early on in heads up.

 

[robwhufc]

If he's holding any pocket pair or any ace with a higher kicker (which wouldn't be hard to outkick your 6) and you don't improve, you just went from a commanding chiplead to crippled.

Of course he could have a better hand than you. A6 is in the top 20% of hands dealt H2H so likelihood is that it isn't. Call

I don't know about you, but I am sure I can find a better spot to call off 25K in chips than right here.

Really? How long is H2H going to last if you fold A6 hands when put under pressure. You cant just fold, fold, fold until you get premium hand. You'll be out before you do.

Besides a quick all-in bully move is common early on in heads up.

All the more reason to call surely?

 

[diabloblanco]

Bottom line is that this is really to unsure a situation to put that much at risk this early. Why do it when you don't have to. Pick another spot to move in and do it. You can't crap your pants because you were dealt a pocket ace heads up and lose your mind. This is almost at best a race and at worst you're in a completely dominated position, why call his all-in under that circumstance? You're leaving way too much to luck when you make that play IMO.

He has plenty of chips to let the 6000 he had in the pot go and still have a commanding lead in the match. Why let a race situation decide that much of the match? I contend that you can still find a better spot to move in than ace-rag offsuit.

 

[robwhufc]

OK, I've just re-read thread and all 4 highly respected posters have disagreed with me (so are all wrong!!!!!).

A6os is actually in the 3rd decile (top 30%), not 2nd.

 

[diabloblanco]

Fold. Easy decision. You can't just go by where a hand lies on the percentage chart for an idea of how the hell to play it. You raise 6K, out of his 25K he calls you (about 22% of his stack) which says he has an OK hand already, then he comes over the top of you for all his chips or 25K (about 63% of your stack) which says you now have to consider his possible starting hands.

When he called the initial bet, he could be on absolutely anything, but for him to come over the top of you for all your chips you have to give him the respect that kind of raise deserves and assume he's holding a hand that has your ace rag dominated.

I don't know what type of players or play that you're used to dealing with but when someone I play with pushes all their chips in the pot over the top of a nice sized bet by me, I have no choice but to respect their raise and give them credit for a hand. It is for this reason that I would not call this bet off here with ace rag. If I was holding a pocket pair or two cards painted and suited depending on the situation the call becomes fairly easy, but not with ace rag.

To use the strength of the hand only when determining whether or not to call is foolhearty. You have to consider that you were raised after making a 5xBB raise for 63% of your stack, which changes the range of hands you have to put your opponent on. That 30% number (which I admittedly haven't checked so I'm taking your word on it) is the hands percentage of holding up vs. 2 other random cards. Assuming you have no idea or indication of hands strength maybe the call would be correct, like if he raised you blind. But since he knows what he is holding and raises you still, you have to change the possibilities of his hole cards from any 2, to two pretty decent ones that most likely have you dominated. Fold.

 

[robwhufc]

When he called the initial bet, he could be on absolutely anything, but for him to come over the top of you for all your chips you have to give him the respect that kind of raise deserves and assume he's holding a hand that has your ace rag dominated.

You don't have to assume anything of the sort. There's no table position - he's gambling that you haven't got a premium hand and are going to lay down to all-in. You've shown you've got a good hand (or you're trying to make him think you've got a good hand) by raising, and he's bluffing by coming over the top, with what could "only" be a good hand.

I'm loathe to say "I was right", because i'm a firm believer in the actual outcome of hand being irrelevent to whether you were right or not. Fact is though, Dorkus' opponent DID only have 7,2, and WAS bluffing. If he'd have been playing you, you' have smugly been reassuring yourself that you had read table asutely and folded inferior hand. He'd have been laughing the other end, having taken 6,000 chips with 7,2. If he repeated this and you didn't have better hand than A6 he'd have won again.

Full table, i'd NEVER EVER EVER call all in with A6 - you'd be a moron to, for all the reason you've described, but Head 2 Head? You don't worry about suits, you don't worry about connectors. You hit big cards and A is big card.

As I said it's 4 against 1 against me. I cant wait for my next H2H, as I know exactly what i'm going to do now next time, so see if what i've learned here works out in practice.

P.S Good luck tomorrow - if u get to final 2, remember All-in!!!!

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

One other influencing factor that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned here is the blinds. Villain here has ~12BB, Hero ~20BB, so as is typical in SnGs the blinds are large relative to the stacks heads-up. Like I said I'd been seeing Villain reraising over the top while we were 3 handed a lot, so I didn't base the call "purely on the cards". I figured he was going to do this a lot while we were heads up, and that I wouldn't find many better spots to call. Fact is, if I fold here and Villain keeps pushing thereafter, am I going to find a better spot to push back before I get blinded away to a short stack? I'm guessing the odds are against it. With such large blinds one cannot be afraid to call a push with Ax against Captain Hyperaggressive - if I call and lose chip positions are reversed and I'm down to 8BB or so, but if I don't call I could be quite easily down to 8BB waiting for a better spot.

If the blinds were 500-1000 or less of course this is an easy fold.

 

[diabloblanco]

Not according to rob.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Are blinds an issue in heads up play? Does size of blind matter whether you should call all in or not? Surely the strength (or perceived strength) of your hand is the prevailling factor.

Well yes and no. If Hero has 50BBs to Villain's 30BBs, hero raises to 3BBs and villain pushes it's a lot different from Hero having 15BBs, Villain 10BBs, hero raising to 3BBs and Villain pushing. The higher the blinds relative to the stacks the wider your range for calling a push should be. With 50/30 BB stacks if you're playing someone who pushes nearly every hand first in you can afford to wait for a big or at least a reasonably big hand before calling simply because you can afford to fold many more hands before becoming shortstacked, and can even risk a standard steal or two of your own when you're first to act without being crippled if pushed back at. You even touch on this yourself...

In the situation you described, I would evisage you falling behind to more aggressive opponent. Time will come when you're calling all-in with weaker hand than A6, so I would take him on now - if you lose you can still fight back.

Yep, you're right imo "in the situation I described", but not if the blinds are lower relative to the stacks for the reasons I already mentioned.

Edit: rob deleted his post so I guess this can be ignored. xD

 

[xdmanx007]

1000 and 2000 blinds don't quite justify this call. I am a big supporter of losening up as the blinds start hitting your stack more. Now the only way you could convince me an allin is warranted is if you RAISED the short stack allin. That did not happen he CALLED an allin raise or if you were live and somehow got a read the guy wasn't strong. A6off is not a premium hand. Any ace is strong heads up but it is in no way a premium hand. The initial raise was 3xBB the reraise was 4X the RAISE! COME ON! You lose you are pretty much done. I don't make the call. You want to CREATE races or coin flips when you are the chip leader not join one!

 

[robwhufc]

Ha Dorkus, you quoted a post i deleted, not cos I was wrong (i'm never wrong), but because I took you to task for siding against me. I read you post again and realised you'd done nothing of the sort - sorry.

Well if nothing else, this post has made me think. I know how good players approach a hand H2H, and will put this info to use next time i'm heads up.

I think heads up generally are coin flips. You obviously want to give yourself as much of an edge as possible, but once you're in it's down to the cards. It's a battle of nerves and a case of picking your spots to go.

 

[diabloblanco]

Only coinflips you should enter are unavoidable ones or ones you're forced into because of blinds.