$Freeroll NLHE MTT: 56o in BB

[mariussica88]

MP+2 stats after 25 hands: VPIP 16 PFR 9 * no other info on him/her

1. Do you guys think calling the pre-flop is ok?
2. In a multiway pot is ok to call post-flop 1BB bet with middle pair?
3. Is the river call a bad call?


pokerstars - 125/250 Ante 25 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

MP: 2,465 (9.9 bb)
MP+1: 2,787 (11.1 bb)
MP+2: 1,949 (7.8 bb)
CO: 9,821 (39.3 bb)
BTN: 4,158 (16.6 bb)
SB: 8,097 (32.4 bb)
Hero (BB): 12,404 (49.6 bb)
UTG: 4,740 (19 bb)
UTG+1: 2,520 (10.1 bb)

9 players post ante of 25, SB posts 125, Hero posts BB 250

Pre Flop: (pot: 600) Hero has
3 folds, MP+1 calls 250, MP+2 raises to 500, CO calls 500, fold, SB calls 375, Hero calls 250, MP+1 calls 250

Flop: (2,725, 5 players)
SB bets 250, Hero calls 250, MP+1 calls 250, MP+2 calls 250, CO calls 250

Turn: (3,975, 5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP+1 checks, MP+2 checks, CO checks

River: (3,975, 5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP+1 checks, MP+2 bets 1,174 and is all-in, 2 folds, Hero calls 1,174, fold

Results: 6,323 pot (0 rake)
Final Board:

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
It cant be that bad to call with a connected hand getting 10:1, even its going to be a very multiway spot, where you are out of position. It is close though, and folding would not be a significant mistake either, especially when two opponents are this short.

Flop
Against normal sizing I would just fold here, but once again you are getting better than 10:1. So even if you are always behind to a K, you are getting direct odds to try to improve to two pair or trips and scoop a large pot.

Turn
Standard check.

River
Its close. Obviously you still lose to a K, and he could have that, even though there are now two of them on the board. I will discount a K a little bit though, when he dont wake up to any kind of action until the river. You are getting another great price of almost 5:1, and at least 2 guys have now folded, so you only have the original limper left behind, and he have already checked the river. Its also a freeroll, and you will see some people do things like betting A4 for no reason. So I think, you are going to win often enough to justify this call.

 

[IADaveMark]

1. Do you guys think calling the pre-flop is ok?
2. In a multiway pot is ok to call post-flop 1BB bet with middle pair?
3. Is the river call a bad call?

Before we even get the action, one of the things that jumped out was the stack sizes. MP+2 (Villain) had only 8bb. 4 people are <11. Oh... and you crush them at 50. However, that doesn't mean that you are up for simply losing 11bb on a hand. My guess is that we were getting close the money in a tournament? But at 125/250, that doesn't seem to make sense. So without context here...

3 folds, MP+1 calls 250, MP+2 raises to 500, CO calls 500, fold, SB calls 375, Hero calls 250, MP+1 calls 250

So MP+1 flats and then MP+2—our shortest stack—min raises?!? WTF is that about. While I can understand CO (who is deep) calling this in position, your call with 56o out of position is a little off. Still, not horrible. But even if you hit your flop, you aren't going to feel great about it if there are overs out there with 4 other people in the hand.

SB bets 250, Hero calls 250, MP+1 calls 250, MP+2 calls 250, CO calls 250

To make things weirder, SB donk-bets the flop. Donk bets often happen when someone hits the flop and either doesn't want to see any more cards or wants to sweeten the pot because they hit a monster. Not sure what that would mean with a 1bb bet here. Still, you hit middle pair and it is only 1bb. If someone raises it later after you, you can bail. But that didn't happen and everyone called. Also worth noting. And it is increasingly more likely that someone has a K or an overpair to your 6s.

OTOH, checking through on the turn feels more like people on draws or are a little wary of the strength of their own hand with the K out there. e.g. 77-JJ, etc. You could even see this with someone that has a K with a bad kicker because so many others called the flop.

SB checks, Hero checks, MP+1 checks, MP+2 bets 1,174 and is all-in, 2 folds, Hero calls 1,174, fold

SB checking both turn and river makes me feel like he was just trying to get everyone out on the flop. Agree with your open check here. MP+2 shoving is not surprising regardless of his hand because he is so short stacked. He may do this with simple showdown value e.g. Ax.

Considering that the effective is only another 4.5bb and you are getting 5:1 on a call, is there a 20% chance you are ahead here? There's only the SB left to act if you call which bothers me a bit since he has a substantial stack that you would not want to call if he shoves. But again, you are risking another 4.5bb to either see showdown or fold it away if SB raises.

There are only 2 K left. SB's donk bet early without follow up on later streets kind of negates him having a K. And Villain would have probable jammed an earlier street if he had one. The only exception to that is if he had Kx and was worried about the action and is now happier because he has trip kings so he is less likely to be up against another K that almost certainly has him out-kicked. Another option is that he flopped a monster and was hoping to milk all he could out of the field and is afraid of a full check-through on the river so this is a "value shove".

Given all the above, I would call this since the downside is relatively minimal.

 

[300HPGOD]

Pretty much echo both of the above. Pre flop you are getting a crazy price with connected cards. In game I do fold this a lot as I do not defend enough from the big blind. The issue that I have which was brought up by Dave is that the opener is so small here. That should signal something to us unless we just think this player has no clue what they are doing. We dont have a lot of hands on them but we have enough to see they are at least somewhat tight at 16/9. In seeing that they are short stacked and min raising and seem to be a tight player I would have no issues folding this but also think the price is good. So my opinion on the flop is this is personal preference but Im sure the math easily says call this and see what the flop brings. It would be a different scenario if some of the larger stacks did not come along or there were no stacks above 15 BBs in the hand then I think you just fold since the upside is capped.

Flop is such a small bet but it still bothers me to call. I believe its the right play as we have 2nd pair and backdoor straight but I also feel a lot of the time someone who is short is going to just jam this flop and thats it. However the nice thing is it is a 1 BB bet so this should be a call as you did and hope no one raises.

Turn is a check fold spot but when all check through you have to be happy.

River is obviously a good card since its a little harder for someone to have a King. I think checking is the correct play here as you did and then when villain jams it comes down to what we think about them. Face value this feels like K or nothing and there are plenty of reasons to come up with why a player who starts the hand with 8 BBs and min raises and then if they were to flop top pair against so many players would just get it in there meaning they probably dont have a king. Where my thinking about villain comes in though is do we think they are bad enough to play 88 or 99 this way? Bad raise sizing pre and then overcard comes so they shut it down but the bet they face is too small to fold (just like it is for us) so they call and then check turn and now feel empowered since a 2nd king came down. Depending on what we think of them this might be possible. With all that though we are getting almost 5 to 1 on a call and have second pair where the top pair is on the paired board. No flush no straight outside weird 53 which we block I think you have to call this one off.

I will say though I would not be shocked if they flip over something that beats us and this hand is one reason why I think I do not defend a lot. You can get sucked into a lot of hands with weak holdings and then are playing out of position against multiple players. It usually puts you in spots like these that obviously can be profitable but also make you guess a lot, especially at the lower buy ins since their ranges are wider.

 

[fundiver199]

I will say though I would not be shocked if they flip over something that beats us and this hand is one reason why I think I do not defend a lot. You can get sucked into a lot of hands with weak holdings and then are playing out of position against multiple players. It usually puts you in spots like these that obviously can be profitable but also make you guess a lot, especially at the lower buy ins since their ranges are wider.

Very fair point. When MP+2 is this short, I can certainly see a justification for just folding pre and not get involved in such a silly spot. He is min-raising over a limp with an 8BB stack. What on earth is going on here? Is he just completely clueless? Certainly possible since its a freeroll. But he could also be trapping with a monster. Regardless he will have an SPR of less than 0,5 going to the flop, so its very easy for him to jam the flop, and we will almost never be able to call that, not even when we flop a pair.

Like on this board for example. If MP+2 had jammed the flop, would we be willing to call off with second pair? Probably not. So very often we just end up putting in another blind on the flop and then folding postflop. Here we were kind of lucky to get all the way to the river, and as we both agree, maybe we can make a marginal call here. But we are still going to get shown a silly played 88 or a slowplayed AK or something else, that beat us, a lot of the time.

 

[mariussica88]

Thank you all for the feedback. Here is the full hand.

PokerStars - 125/250 Ante 25 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

MP: 2,465 (9.9 bb)
MP+1: 2,787 (11.1 bb)
MP+2: 1,949 (7.8 bb)
CO: 9,821 (39.3 bb)
BTN: 4,158 (16.6 bb)
SB: 8,097 (32.4 bb)
Hero (BB): 12,404 (49.6 bb)
UTG: 4,740 (19 bb)
UTG+1: 2,520 (10.1 bb)

9 players post ante of 25, SB posts 125, Hero posts BB 250

Pre Flop: (pot: 600) Hero has
3 folds, MP+1 calls 250, MP+2 raises to 500, CO calls 500, fold, SB calls 375, Hero calls 250, MP+1 calls 250

Flop: (2,725, 5 players)
SB bets 250, Hero calls 250, MP+1 calls 250, MP+2 calls 250, CO calls 250

Turn: (3,975, 5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP+1 checks, MP+2 checks, CO checks

River: (3,975, 5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP+1 checks, MP+2 bets 1,174 and is all-in, 2 folds, Hero calls 1,174, fold

Results: 6,323 pot (0 rake)
Final Board:

MP+2 shows : (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 62%, Flop 24%, Turn 14%)

Hero shows : (Two Pair, Kings and Sixes)
(Pre 38%, Flop 76%, Turn 86%)

Hero wins 6,323

 

[IADaveMark]

Yeah, this falls in line with what a lot of us were saying. He tiny bet the flop in the hopes of chasing people out, got scared on the turn when the were callers, the said, "aw, what the hell" on the river.

But with 8bb, the standard shove pre with AQ (or any A for that matter) would have likely taken it down right there and bought him another orbit. Odd.

 

[fundiver199]

So he was just completely clueless. Not getting AQ in preflop with 8BB, and then trying to bluff 4 people out of the pot on the river, when he could only bet 30% of the pot. Nice call