£250 NL HE MTT: Big pot. SB v BB late in day 1 of 2-day MTT.

[fergysteve]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

250

Currency

£

Note - as with my other hand thread, this is to the best of my recollection from a live tournament but I am pretty confident in the accuracy.

Hero in SB stack appx 125k (blinds 2000/4000(4000 BB ante). 5 handed. Average stack size around 136k. Last level before end of day 1.

Hole cards: Q ♣️ J ♠️

2 limpers. Hero raises to 8000. Villain (BB - stack not 100% sure but definitely easily covers. Estimate around 180k) calls. Pot 24000. All limpers fold.

Flop Q ♥️ 7 ♦️ 9 ♣️

Hero bets 12000. Villain thinks for a bit and calls. Pot now 48000.

Turn 7 ♠️

Hero bets 25000. Again villain tanks for a bit and calls. Pot now 98000. Hero left with appx 80000 behind.

River 3 ♣️.

Hero shoves...

 

[puzzlefish]

Playing for stacks with top pair 3rd best kicker isn't something I like to do. What worse hand is going to call you? What better hand is going to fold?

 

[fergysteve]

I agree on reflection. This was definitely a bad decision and I think I would have check/folded after the 7 came out on the turn if I had the play again. I don't know if he would have then sensed weakness and tried to bluff the 7 or not. Maybe he would have checked down to showdown.

I think in the moment based on his behaviour I was putting him on something marginal, maybe a similar hand to mine or possibly middle pair with an overcard hoping for a hit. When I shoved I actually wanted and half expected a fold. It would have taken him down to about a third of average stack if he had lost and given the proximity to end of day I thought he'd maybe just cut and run with approx average stack to day 2.

On reflection, I don't like the play. I was worried if I checked at the river then I show weakness and he shoves anyway to put me all in so my rationale was to put the decision on him. I think he was worried I was on AQ. Should I have got out earlier? Checked on the turn?

Spoiler: Outcome

Villain tanks for a full 2 mins and calls. Shows Q♦️ K♥️ and takes the pot with the higher kicker. Hero goes home.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
As in the other hand your sizing is way to small. And with this particular hand I would not isolate from SB at all but just complete. Try to see a cheap flop and then go from there. That being said its absolutely insane, that two players each limped in for 40k and then folded in position for a raise of another 40k. And if this was something, that regularly happened, then I guess, the small raise is ok? But I just cant believe, people are this bad, and therefore I would rather focus on learning strategy, that also work against opponents, that are just a little bit better.

Flop
Standard C-bet.

Turn
Typically I would check top pair on a card, that pair second or third pair, and the plan would then be to check-call.

River
I think, its a bit optimistic to go for 3 street of value with this hand, so as played I would check now and then make a decision, if he bet. Most likely check-call, since there are quite a few busted draws, and he should have a wide range defending his big blind to a min-raise.

Result
The fact, he thought about it for a long time before calling you with the one pip better hand, is a clear indication, you overplayed your hand. If you had checked turn or at least river, he would most likely have been happy to check back, and you would have lost a much smaller pot.

 

[eetenor]

I agree on reflection. This was definitely a bad decision and I think I would have check/folded after the 7 came out on the turn if I had the play again. I don't know if he would have then sensed weakness and tried to bluff the 7 or not. Maybe he would have checked down to showdown.

I think in the moment based on his behaviour I was putting him on something marginal, maybe a similar hand to mine or possibly middle pair with an overcard hoping for a hit. When I shoved I actually wanted and half expected a fold. It would have taken him down to about a third of average stack if he had lost and given the proximity to end of day I thought he'd maybe just cut and run with approx average stack to day 2.

On reflection, I don't like the play. I was worried if I checked at the river then I show weakness and he shoves anyway to put me all in so my rationale was to put the decision on him. I think he was worried I was on AQ. Should I have got out earlier? Checked on the turn?

Spoiler: Outcome

Villain tanks for a full 2 mins and calls. Shows Q♦️ K♥️ and takes the pot with the higher kicker. Hero goes home.

You state---When I shoved I actually wanted and half expected a fold.--- You state -I was putting him on something marginal, maybe a similar hand to mine or possibly middle pair- Why do you want a fold? Sure maybe you get QJ to fold the chop but you would also get QT to fold, 9x to fold--

We want to get max value when we are ahead--That is what you should be thinking on the river- how do I get QT to call 9x to call- Can I get JT to bluff -T8 will that bluff 86 etc

If you said QX will call shoves- 9x will call shoves- V never bluffs then shoving and running into KQ is fine--you would be thinking strategically correct.

 

[fundiver199]

I was worried if I checked at the river then I show weakness and he shoves anyway to put me all in so my rationale was to put the decision on him.

Just want to make an additional comment about this statement, because I feel, its a common mental game flaw, which a lot of people suffer from, when they are out of position. And then they end up betting, not because its a profitable decision, but because they feel uncomfortable facing a bet and having to make a decision. But making decisions is exactly how, we win in poker, so this is a huge problem.

If you think, someone will bet, just because you showed weakness, then by all means check and let them bluff away with all their busted draws and perhaps even value own themself with worse made hands. And then call! Inducing bluffs and then snapping them off, or making opponents value own themselfes on the river, is a great way to win in poker.

Or if you have a completely different read and think, they will only bet the river, when you are beat, then check-fold! Checking the river with intention to check-fold does not mean, we are giving up, if we have showdown value and assume, our opponent is never bluffing. Because in that case it will go check-check a lot, and then we often win at showdown.

 

[fergysteve]

Thank you. All makes a lot of sense

 

[fundiver199]

Last level before end of day 1.

You did not say, if this factored into your decision making. But if it was important for you to come back for day 2, and you were willing to give up a little bit of EV to achieve this result, then just fold preflop and let the other goofballs do, what they want to do. Its not like, QJo is some sort of monster, that we make tons of money from playing out of position. Or as I said already, just complete to keep the pot as small as possible and keep yourself away from accidentally getting committed to the pot. If BB then puts in a big raise, you can just fold and avoid, what turned out to be a situation, where you were dominated.

 

[fergysteve]

I think it did. I certainly saw the opportunity to go from average stack size to doubled up. I think it probably affected my judgement there. I was hoping it would also be in his mind, similar to someone tightening up on the bubble and he would fold out too if it was marginal. Clearly too much hoping going on!

Lots of learning points. Probably also slightly affected with it being my first ‘big’ tournament as well. I have made peace with it. Mistakes are how we learn. As long as we don’t repeatedly make the same ones

 

[ratbat615]

Be very careful of top pair shovels . maybe check some time lol.