€100+10 NL HE MTT: Top pair facing half-pot bet into several players

[primrose]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

100+10

Currency

€

In this hand, I'm in the third blind level of my twice-weekly local casino tournament. I have on the Hijack and the UTG+2 player (on a 10-handed table, so 2 before the LJ) minraises 300 (2 BB).

Usually this hand should be a fold, but this was a super passive table where no one was 3betting anything, which means you can significantly widen your ranges, so I flatted. CO and SB and BB also come along, so we're 5way. SB does a lot of tricky things like trapping and bluffing (but not in a good way), the other three are all your typical weak passive live players.

Flop is (Pot=1500.) It checks to UTG+2, who cbets 300. I call, as does everyone else.

Turn is (Pot=3000.) It checks to UTG+2 again, who bets 1400. What now? What would you do? And why? I recommend thinking about this before looking at the spoiler. (UTG+2 has 2400 chips behind after this bet, assume everyone else had a starting stack of around 8000.)

My action:

Spoiler

When I want to make a call I ask, does my opponent bet this with X, where X is the best hand I beat? Is this QT?

Villain bet into 4 people, then bet into 4 people again. Now Villain doesn't necessarily adjust his play enough for the number of players, and also this bet sizing is not that large; this is the best reason for calling. But it is still a bet and then another bet into 4 people. Even with the bet sizing, I think it's a stretch to give him QT. And that's the best hand I beat. Every other hand I beat is even less likely.

And also, one of the other players could waking up with a strong hand here. They didn't show any strength, but it's not impossible. So even though it's annoying to fold a decent top pair to a half pot bet, I folded.

In retrospect this looks even more like a fold than it did at the time -- to me anyway, it's easier when you don't have chips invested -- but I think it's a spot that many people would call, so it seemed worth sharing.

Reveal:

Spoiler

Two players called the Turn bet, River was the , UTG+2 allined and got one caller; UTG+2 had Aces and won the pot, the other player didn't show.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
The issue with calling here is not just, if someone behind 3-bet. Its also, that you are against an early position range, where weak offsuit broadways suffer from a ton of domination. His range contain all the big pairs of course and AQ, AJ, KQ, KJs, but it contain very few hands, that you dominate. He could be opening QTs, JTs and perhaps J9s, but thats just about it. So you end up in situations, where you flop top pair, but your hand is basically only a bluff catcher.

Flop
He only bet 20% pot, and this is so small, that you actually kind of want to raise to price out the blinds from continuing with all sorts of bad hands, that have equity. But of course the issue is, what I wrote above, that unless the preflop raiser is bluffing, you probably dont have the best hand against him. Even so I actually think, a small raise here to like 900 could make sense almost to kind of find out, where you are.

This is something, I hardly ever do or recommend, but in this particular situation I think, it could make sense. If the preflop raiser has a hand like AK, he is likely going to fold, and then you dont need to worry about him any more. And if he continue, you know, you are behind, so you check back turn and give up on the river, unless you spike a Q or J to improve.

Turn
With this turn bet, he has put in almost half his chips, which mean, he has more or less committed himself to the pot. I dont think, 7s ever helped him improve to a 2 pair hand or a straight, so you were either behind the whole time, or maybe he picked up a spade draw. You also still have two guys left to act behind you, and they could easily have a straight or two pair now, because they got such a good price on the flop. So I think, its either a fold or a call with the intention to not put in any more chips, unless you improve.

Spoiler
So you would have sucked out on him, which is kind of funny. But I think, it highlights, what I wrote under preflop about the domination issues and the reasons for just folding pre. Of course AA is an extreme example, but he could also have had AQ or KQ, and as you say yourself, does he really fire two bets into 3 opponents with QT? Probably not, and he also dont open QTo, so its only two combos of QTs at most. I think, you made a good choise by cutting your losses at the turn, but I also think, you could have done a little better by not getting involved at all.

 

[primrose]

Interesting idea, I don't hate raising. Denying everyone else a cheap Turn definitely has some value, there's a pretty high chance someone picks up two pair with so many players in the pot.

One reason against it is that, again because it is 5-way, it's not that unlikely that you are already behind, in which case raising will mean you lose more. As happened here. One of the people who checked preflop could also have a set, and if they do they'd let you know on the Flop. Then raising just means losing another 600 chips.

This kind of goes together with the preflop question. Maybe folding is better (although QJ also makes straights and 2 pair). But if you call, you have to be disciplined enough to not lose a lot of chips if you are dominated. Not saying a raise is undisciplined, but again, would have lost more chips. As is the entire hand only cost me 600. If you can get away this cheaply in the cases where you are dominated, it might be worth it to flat.

 

[fundiver199]

One of the people who checked preflop could also have a set, and if they do they'd let you know on the Flop. Then raising just means losing another 600 chips.

That is definitely an argument for just calling. If someone behind you raise, and the preflop raiser continue, you can feel pretty sure, at least one of them have you beat, and let it go. Its just, that his bet was so small, that its almost like letting everyone see the next card for free. I rarely find myself in this kind of spot, so it was just a thought.