A kiravio
Legend
Loyaler
The odds are very high on the flop, a double on the turn is still a question mark, something that doesn't help you at all on the river is a hangman. After all, on the flop you can only speculate (you have nothing yet). Are you willing to risk more for the future?Would you bring an ace of flush to the table for your peace of mind? Or a ten and a queen to make a straight? But doesn't anyone have an ace for a hight straight? So.....rarely will someone venture for noting concrete.
najisami
Legend
Loyaler
Your post is lacking a lot of information sir.
1st of all, what are you doing there with that hand? Unless you are on the button or on the blinds (no raise).
Then who went all in? Does he have you covered? Any info about them? Was it a raised pot? Who raised? ...............
1st of all, what are you doing there with that hand? Unless you are on the button or on the blinds (no raise).
Then who went all in? Does he have you covered? Any info about them? Was it a raised pot? Who raised? ...............
Frappo
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Yeah, sorry for that. I was on BB and before flop there was a raise to around 4BB from LJ, a call from BTN and a call from me. LJ covers me with chips, while BTN has 1BB less than me. After flop I checked, LJ raised 5BB, BTN shoved all-in (14BB). I can either fold, call and have 1BB remaining or also shove all-in
thetick33
Legend
Loyaler
normally id toss knowing behind but also was I feeling lucky at that time was I winning steadily catching cards etc...is a lot to think about....if i was on a run for a few days id call here....depends on how i feel etc....everything isnt all about math is the players too...if called id expect to have to catch to win ...having almost two toppers would help if thought was maybe a grab etc....meaning maybe i think btn is jamming with the jack id call here very often or more often
MK_
Legend
Loyaler
I think at this point folding and leaving yourself 1bb is not an option.... get it in there👍
najisami
Legend
Loyaler
Well, you probably had a reason why you defended with that hand (4x) aside from having 3 to 1 odds.
That shove from the button kind of put you in a tough spot too. Honestly, not knowing how far you are from the money, I would say it would be a gamble if you choose to call.
F
fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
Preflop
A raise to 4BB is not normal and especially not with stacks as shallow as around 20BB. And while K9s is usually a standard defend, when the opponent goes this large, I think, you can just fold. My general read is, that such an oversized raise is almost always a strong hand, that the Villian is willing to go with, if they get 3-bet. hands like AJ+, KQ, 88+. Against such a range K9s is not in good shape, and you are getting a bad price out of position.
Flop
You flopped the second nut flushdraw, and even before any action takes place, you should realise, that you are committed to the pot with only around a pot sized bet left. Which by the way is something, you should think about before sticking in the call preflop. If for instance the flop had come K74 with 2 diamonds instead of J74 with two hearts, you can also not really get away with so little left behind.
And since you are committed to this pot but dont have a made hand yet, I actually like a donk shove here rather than the traditional check to the preflop raiser. If they both missed with hands like AK, AQ, AT, KQ etc., then there is a good chance, you can just take it down right here and now. And if you get called by a hand like AJ or QQ, its essentially a coin flip.
Calling preflop and then donk shoving the flop is also known as the stop-and-go play. Its kind of an old school strategy, but in my experience it still work reasonably well in online micro and low stakes games. And even if LJ is good enough to understand, that your range is almost entirely made up of draws, then what is he going to do about it? Call you with AK, when he still has another guy left to act behind him?
This is not, what you did however, and unfortunately both opponents decided, that they also want to go with their hands. This is not ideal, since now you have very little fold equity against LJ and none against BTN, and you hardly ever have the best hand, so you are basically just hoping to get there. But you are getting around 3:1, and for that reason you still need to call it off.
A raise to 4BB is not normal and especially not with stacks as shallow as around 20BB. And while K9s is usually a standard defend, when the opponent goes this large, I think, you can just fold. My general read is, that such an oversized raise is almost always a strong hand, that the Villian is willing to go with, if they get 3-bet. hands like AJ+, KQ, 88+. Against such a range K9s is not in good shape, and you are getting a bad price out of position.
Flop
You flopped the second nut flushdraw, and even before any action takes place, you should realise, that you are committed to the pot with only around a pot sized bet left. Which by the way is something, you should think about before sticking in the call preflop. If for instance the flop had come K74 with 2 diamonds instead of J74 with two hearts, you can also not really get away with so little left behind.
And since you are committed to this pot but dont have a made hand yet, I actually like a donk shove here rather than the traditional check to the preflop raiser. If they both missed with hands like AK, AQ, AT, KQ etc., then there is a good chance, you can just take it down right here and now. And if you get called by a hand like AJ or QQ, its essentially a coin flip.
Calling preflop and then donk shoving the flop is also known as the stop-and-go play. Its kind of an old school strategy, but in my experience it still work reasonably well in online micro and low stakes games. And even if LJ is good enough to understand, that your range is almost entirely made up of draws, then what is he going to do about it? Call you with AK, when he still has another guy left to act behind him?
This is not, what you did however, and unfortunately both opponents decided, that they also want to go with their hands. This is not ideal, since now you have very little fold equity against LJ and none against BTN, and you hardly ever have the best hand, so you are basically just hoping to get there. But you are getting around 3:1, and for that reason you still need to call it off.
F
fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
Just a few additional words on why I prefer to donk-shove the flop in this situation. The reason is, that when the stack to pot ratio is only 1, then any bet, thats not completely insignificant, commits people to the pot. Even betting 1/3 pot means, someone have put in half their stack, and they are not going to do that with a made hand and then fold later. And for that reason the only reason to get fold euqity is to come right out swinging on the flop, before anyone else get a chance to commit themselfes, as both players did here. And of course we prefer to play draws with fold equity, because it gives us to two ways of winning the pot instead of just one.
MK_
Legend
Loyaler
I think even considering folding and leaving
yourself 1bb is a far bigger gamble here,
you have 14 of your 15bbs in there at 42%...
it's a call all day long, how you got here is another
story... but here we are... you can get it in now
or the next hand with 1bb.... the math isn't
mathing👍
yourself 1bb is a far bigger gamble here,
you have 14 of your 15bbs in there at 42%...
it's a call all day long, how you got here is another
story... but here we are... you can get it in now
or the next hand with 1bb.... the math isn't
mathing👍
F
fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
I think, he situation is, he checked the flop, he has 15BB left behind, and BTN has shoved for 14BB. So if he just call, he would have 1BB left, which is essentially the same as going all in. Especially because LJ, who bet out 5BB, is hardly ever going to fold, when its 10BB more for him to call to win a pot of almost 60BB. So the real question is fold or jam, and the 1BB difference between Heros stack and BTNs stack just create confusion.
This is the system calculated equity against random hands, but given the action the opponents do not have random hands. I put the spot into Equilab, and it calculated 31% equity for Hero against, what I consider to be realistic ranges for the two opponents. This is still enough though, since Hero is getting almost 3:1 assuming, that HJ calls as well, like he almost always will.
MK_
Legend
Loyaler
Aw well that makes a little more sense, a hand history would help make things clearer,
I don't like anything about how this hand was played or how we got here in the first place
but here we are, ....this is one of those be careful what you wish for hands😎👍