Learning, learning, learning.

[najisami]

Hey everyone,,

We all know the importance of poker learning, and how it should be an on-going "habit" or even a must and serious process for any decent player.
Today, I chose a topic on which every coach and content creator insists, they even say: "Position, position, position".

I'm certainly not going to argue against that, I just want some insight on what one of them (Whom you might know) literally said: "When you are on the CO or the BT, and it's folded to you, abuse your position, it's +EV".

Would you follow his advice with any 2 cards, or you still would be selective??

 

[rhoudini]

Hey najisami! How are you doing? Let's think mathematically for a moment.

Suppose we are in a 8-max tournament table where all the antes sum up to 1 BB, and everyone folds to you on the button.

If you raise to the minimum, you are risking 2 BB to win 4.5 BB (1 in antes, 1 from BB and 0.5 from SB + 2 BB you invested in the pot).
What is the percentage of all the times in which the small and the big blind should both fold to make it profitable for you to raise with any two cards?

Well, thinking about equilibrium, it's quite simple, like the calculation of pot odds: 2:4.5 are also odds of 1:2.25, which give us a required 30.8% for this raise to work. Therefore, if you believe that the remaining players will fold more than 30.8% of the time, it is theoretically profitable to raise with any two hands.

Of course, the question is far more complex: which hands are they going to defend? Will you invest more chips in a c-bet when they defend? If yes, now it is necessary to make the same calculation for their fold to c-bet, and so on. But here you can see that depending on who are the last players to act, you can wide your range A LOT, excluding the worst ones like 72o, 84o and so on, but you can certainly raise a lot with not so intuitive hands like 85s, por example. But still, this is not GTO anymore, you start to navigate in the waters of exploitative play. And when you do it, you open yourself to be exploited too. If someone good sees you doing this, they will start 3-betting you wide too.

In a tournament, when ICM starts to be very important (like on the bubble or close to FT), you need to also restrict your range too, specially when you are not the chip leader, but you will notice a lot of opportunities where it is profitable to almost raise 100% because players are fearful of busting or playing a big hand.

 

[najisami]

If you raise to the minimum, you are risking 2 BB to win 4.5 BB (1 in antes, 1 from BB and 0.5 from SB + 2 BB you invested in the pot).

Hey man , I'm ok, thank you, I hope you're doing well.

Well actually, in this scenario, I would be risking 2 BBs to win 2.5 BBs bro, not 4.5. Therefore, the "1: 2.25" becomes "1: 1.25", which changes the "30.8%" dramatically.
But the rest of your post makes a lot of sense. You made me rethink a few things, thank you.

When that guy said: "Abuse your position", it was in the context of stealing the blinds, and I remember him saying that you will succeed at least 3 out of 5 times, which he considers +EV. Personally, I'm not really sure about that, I still have a lot to learn, hence my post.

Your last paragraph opened my eyes to something else too. I think that guy is mostly a cash player if I'm not mistaking, so his strategy should be taken with a grain of salt. Like you said, in tournament play, there are many factors that come in play depending on the stack sizes and the tourney stages etc...
I hope we'll get some more ideas from the other CC friends, thanks a lot man. See you at the tables .

 

[fundiver199]

It depends on the situation, and who are behind you. If its near the bubble in an MTT, and you are a mid-stack with two big stacked maniacs behind you, then its vastly better to do the exact opposit and only enter the pot with premium holdings. Exploitable strategies are only usefull, when you correctly identify mistakes, that other players make.

 

[YLAN]

I tend not to abuse on anything because karma is real. The poker Gods will give u a spanking.

 

[Luvepoker]

I would be still selective of the hands I would use. If we start using any 2, smart players will see this and take advantage of us by 3 betting. It will also depend on the situation at hand in the tournaments if that's what you're playing and the BB normally reactions to raises.

 

[rhoudini]

Hey man , I'm ok, thank you, I hope you're doing well.

Well actually, in this scenario, I would be risking 2 BBs to win 2.5 BBs bro, not 4.5. Therefore, the "1: 2.25" becomes "1: 1.25", which changes the "30.8%" dramatically.
But the rest of your post makes a lot of sense. You made me rethink a few things, thank you.

Actually I made a little mistake, you are almost right, actually it is not 2:4.5 or 1:2.25, but yes, we do need to include what we invested:
We risk 2 BB to win back 4.5 BB and, therefore, it has to work 2/4.5 = 44.44% of the time.

The 1:1.25 is not correct because, from a mathematical equilibrium point of view, we would only play KK+ even from other positions. Remember when we are calculating pot odds in a call to all-in, we also include our chips in the amount that we would win, because when we invest them in the pot, they are not ours anymore.

By the way, some time ago, the opening ranges were defined like that, just calculating the % required for equilibrium and selecting hands that would have overall equity required for raising or calling. You can have a look at the book The Mathematics of Poker, and also Applications of No Limit Hold'em, two great books ahead of their time. That's why the ranges were more linear than they are today. With the advance of GTO simulations, we've seen that in deep games we have much more incentive to play suited connectors, suited broadways and smaller suited aces, and not so much hands like ATo or A9o or KJo, for example, that previously would appear in any opening range.

 

[Mr.$t0k]

I think we must be selective and raise with middle power hand and raise for 3 bb

 

[najisami]

I think we must be selective and raise with middle power hand and raise for 3 bb

Yeah I agree with being a little selective there. Especially in tournament play. As I said before, that guy plays cash mostly, that's why he recommends abusing the position.

 

[Ogma]

Hey everyone,,

We all know the importance of poker learning, and how it should be an on-going "habit" or even a must and serious process for any decent player.
Today, I chose a topic on which every coach and content creator insists, they even say: "Position, position, position".

I'm certainly not going to argue against that, I just want some insight on what one of them (Whom you might know) literally said: "When you are on the CO or the BT, and it's folded to you, abuse your position, it's +EV".

Would you follow his advice with any 2 cards, or you still would be selective??

Hey bud.

I would still exercise caution and yes, I'd be very selective.

I've been caught with my pants down a few times and I've seen it happen to others.

 

[maronza1]

Hahaha you remind me of the bronze freeroll i played yesterday on replay, @BigDice75 abused his position and his big stack to bully @Becky Eubanks and it was fun to watch, Bigdice really demonstrated the power of position though wih a big stack, of which if it was not his stack he was not going to be aggressive.

It depends on your stack size, you cannot try to steal the blinds from players that will likely defends their blinds, thus knowing your opponent types is crucial before doing this manuever. If you are deep, thats when you will comfortably take advantage of your position. The stage of the tournament also has some influence to that, if you try stealing the blinds early in a tourney, the chances of success are slim, but late in the tournament players tent to play tight, thats when you can attempt that.

 

[Ogma]

BigDice75 is little more than a glorified bingo player and certified blind robber.

He got extremely lucky against me a few weeks ago trying to rob my blind, all in with KJ suited v my AQ suited. Stacks were pretty even, not far off final table cut-off. Terrible play from him but he got lucky. Bullying is the ugly part of the game.

Never be afraid to stand up to a bully, even if it may hurt a little. And that goes for everything in life.

 

[hilary antonik filho]

Sometimes I try to be selective, but the desire to take risks prevails, I see no reason to play with fear, but taking risks without cards would be a joke

 

[najisami]

BigDice75 is little more than a glorified bingo player and certified blind robber

Agree, and so are a few others. I'm sure you know them.

 

[Ogma]

Agree, and so are a few others. I'm sure you know them.

Every match I play, I observe a little more, read a little more about who the other players are. What their calling ranges are, patterns of play, etc.

There are a few 'go big or go home' types that are usually found either at one end of the leaderboard or the other. Rarely in the middle. I'll name no names.

Various breeds of fish have been identified.

We're all bullies at the tables, man. It's fair game, it's the nature of the beast. Poker is a cut-throat battle that can be won or lost in the cruelest fashion. Big Dice is just playing his game. When the time is right, these people can be exploited but there's always that risk isn't there?

 

[Rmi]

Whenever you play in those positions you will have an advantage when speaking after your opponent, so you must take advantage of that to assert your game

 

[najisami]

We're all bullies at the tables, man. It's fair game, it's the nature of the beast. Poker is a cut-throat battle that can be won or lost in the cruelest fashion. Big Dice is just playing his game. When the time is right, these people can be exploited but there's always that risk isn't there?

You're right man, and the thing about those CC games is that they are played friendly no matter what. You get me today, I'll get you tomorrow, just poker.

 

[martDdart]

I raise with any two cards first in preflop if sb and bb fold a lot,are asleep or sitting out.

 

[Moneyjoy]

BigDice75 is little more than a glorified bingo player and certified blind robber.

He got extremely lucky against me a few weeks ago trying to rob my blind, all in with KJ suited v my AQ suited. Stacks were pretty even, not far off final table cut-off. Terrible play from him but he got lucky. Bullying is the ugly part of the game.

Never be afraid to stand up to a bully, even if it may hurt a little. And that goes for everything in life.

If you stand up against a wise bully, it won't hurt a little, but rather hard!
For me, bullying is inherent to the finesse of the game, in poker as in life.

 

[Ogma]

You're trying to sound clever but you are saying very little.

What has wisdom got to do with a bingo player chancing his arm with inferior cards?

A wise bully? Never met one. I did meet one bully who was 6 foot 4 inches tall and by the time we were done his mouth was not one inch off the dirt.

It's all relative.

Bullying is absolutely inherent to the game but bullies don't always win.

 

[Moneyjoy]

Sometimes I try to be selective, but the desire to take risks prevails, I see no reason to play with fear, but taking risks without cards would be a joke

In the game of poker, I've found that sometimes you don't need the cards to make a move, and everybody at the table falls into the trap.
It's a matter of belief, I think. Yes this can happen when the story is highly believable.