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Message: [QUOTE="zachvac, post: 688813, member: 26306"] Basically I'm saying that with total crap in the SB with all folds to you, I would flat call preflop and bet the flop. My logic was that if you find out PF if he has a hand worth raising with, without having to pay the money to find out, you can then bet the flop on hands not worth it for him to raise with, knowing that the majority of the time he misses. The math I did depended on this though: If you get called on a preflop raise or if you flat call PF and get called on the flop, you will not win the hand. I stated that this is false, but for the sake of our ev calculation we ignore this for both, knowing that the actual ev will be higher than our calculated ev, because we will sometimes hit a flop. But I'm talking about hands where you basically want 2-pair or better to show the hand down, as with Q6o. Even if the flop comes Q73, I'm wanting to see a cheap SD with Q6. If the flop comes Q63 though, I'm assuming I'm ahead either way. So most of the time we don't hit the flop, we're relying on stealing the hand and our hand is virtually meaningless in this calculation. Our calculation simply relies on villain's hand, and given the PFR numbers as well as calls PFR% we can make the calculation, although another small factor is the fact that many especially $10NL players will loosen their starting requirements from the BB. I've seen people call a PFR from the BB with as little as something like J6. So my logic was that they would call with hands like J6, but if the flop comes Q52 they could lay it down. I didn't factor that in to my ev equation, so if people loosen up sufficiently from the BB, the flat call to bet the flop becomes a better play. Either play again and again will begin to not work if I develop a pattern, but I don't understand how it is in and of itself a weak play. It will work against a player in the BB who will not call a bet on the flop without getting at least a piece of it, and saves the extra 2 BBs when they pick up a hand and raise PF. [/QUOTE]

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