Should I be able to fold in this situation?

[MrUnlikely]

Middle position opens to 2.5BB and I 3-bet to 7BB with AKo on the button. Mb calls. (SB calls but folds to flop c-bet)
Flop comes K84. He checks and I c-bet around 9BB and he raises to 22BB.
I call 13BB.
Turn is A (spade draw now available)
He bets 32BB (about 1/2 pot)
I call
River is off suit 2
He bets 40BB to put me all in.
I think it looks like he has a set.
I call
He has 88
I think, Maybe I should be folding here? I know people will say that I am at the top of my range, but I felt he was keen to get it all in. I did feel I was probably behind. Is it wrong to think I could be folding here if I feel I am behind?

It was pokerstars 25c/50c zoom

I want to avoid getting stacked in hands where I feel I am behind. Is it a mistake to try to stop getting stacked in spots like this because it will make me too timid to be profitable? I am not too worried about being taken advantage of, because I would not fold every time, but I think if I can avoid a couple of these a session it would significantly benefit my win rate.

The flop raise is the first sign that he is probably strong, and the turn C-bet is confirmation, unless he bluffing wildly, and that would be the time to fold, but I guess if he was bluffing with his flop raise, his turn bet could be a double barrel on a scare card. or he could simply have an A and be thinking that he is now likely ahead of what was probably a pair of kings.

 

[Tigroslav]

When he floats the flop unless you have reads on him being super aggro fishdonk it looks like a set most of the time so yeah you should be able to fold.
If however you dont feel comfortable making this fold consider just flatting his open and that line will leave you more room for gathering info on the flop and onwards.

 

[La reytor]

fold seems fine to me, I would have done the same

 

[ObbleeXY]

Middle position opens to 2.5BB and I 3-bet to 7BB with AKo on the button. Mb calls. (SB calls but folds to flop c-bet)
Flop comes K84. He checks and I c-bet around 9BB and he raises to 22BB.
I call 13BB.
Turn is A (spade draw now available)
He bets 32BB (about 1/2 pot)
I call
River is off suit 2
He bets 40BB to put me all in.
I think it looks like he has a set.
I call
He has 88
I think, Maybe I should be folding here? I know people will say that I am at the top of my range, but I felt he was keen to get it all in. I did feel I was probably behind. Is it wrong to think I could be folding here if I feel I am behind?

It was pokerstars 25c/50c zoom

I want to avoid getting stacked in hands where I feel I am behind. Is it a mistake to try to stop getting stacked in spots like this because it will make me too timid to be profitable? I am not too worried about being taken advantage of, because I would not fold every time, but I think if I can avoid a couple of these a session it would significantly benefit my win rate.

The flop raise is the first sign that he is probably strong, and the turn C-bet is confirmation, unless he bluffing wildly, and that would be the time to fold, but I guess if he was bluffing with his flop raise, his turn bet could be a double barrel on a scare card. or he could simply have an A and be thinking that he is now likely ahead of what was probably a pair of kings.

So you started this hand quite deep in the tourney with circa 100 blinds amiright?


So the error as I see it is waaaay back in calling the check-raise to 22 Bigs. At that point, he has minimum two pair. Your top pair/top kicker doesn't really cut it.

Generally, I say to people who get caught out by a set "too bad, sets are so hidden, forget about it"...but in this case, you have to ask yourself, "why does a person check-raise to 22 Bigs into a pot you've already three-bet and C-bet into?"


There are only two answers here. Either:


1) They are a maniac; or
2) They have two-pair or better, but most likely they've hit a set (or straight or flush, if the board allows it).

So yeah -- I think you should have found a fold...just not when you think you should have found it. You should never have got to the river on this hand.

Of course, all this is ignoring so much more game detail. But in the absence I think this is fair.

The other thing you really have to consider with this specific hand at this specific point in your tourney... You were 100 Bigs deep!
That is a STACK. If you weren't at the beginning of the game, that is probably a BIG STACK.

Your job is to look after that big stack. Sure you want to add to it...but you only want to be putting LOADS of chips into the pot when you are "Nutty". Top pair, top kicker is worth c-betting sure. But top pair is not worth staking your entire tournament on, in most circumstances...or at least not with this one. You need to be getting value on good hands and getting PAID with monsters. You've tried to get PAID with a good hand.

Another thing...beware of two pair. (I coined the phrase: PokerStars...where two-pair comes to die! Feel free to use it!)

Think about all the most recent times you have hit two pair (ignoring times you've been defending the blinds with crap and hit). What do those hands have in common?


I'll be they were connectors! The fact is, we tend to play connectors and suited connectors more often than large gapped hands.
As a result when your connectors hit (pre-river), there is *at least* a straight draw on the table. Since your connectors are also often suited (because hey, we all like to play suited connectors), your two pair also has a higher chance of being against a flush draw board.
Further, in early tourneys, folks are much more likely to play low pairs (and suited/connectors) from earlier positions than in late game.

Set miners try to get in cheap, but if its early or they've got a decent stack they can open up more/open earlier, because the payoff is sooooooo good. Note: Late game set mining from early position is a mugs game. (because if you manage to hit, you often cannot get properly paid, same often goes for chasing straights and flushes late game).

So you see...there are more and more reasons to be willing to lay down top pair or top two pair under certain circumstances.
So yeah -- find those folds now and again and you'll find yourself getting further into the money.


Cheers,
JT
PS More humble me will admit to going out of league an hour ago check-shoving two pair and getting beaten by the flush coming in for the villain.

Good luck on the felt!

 

[TomCj]

To Donk or not to Donk

I often have a hard time folding any two pair,
especially so when its AK

but with the big bets, it usually signals something major
almost always better than two pair

I'm still trying to discipline myself
to give up pairs to large bets after the flop

I always bites if you see it was a bluff,
but, usually, it's not a bluff

so I must learn to lay 'em down


TC

 

[gustav197poker]

In zoom the players tend to play more aggressively, because there they try to steal pots more often.
However, on a flop as dry as this one, V values ​​shouldn't be too much. So at that size of raise we get a call most of the time. Retiring here is not a recommendation. 3-betting on the flop has certain advantages in these game formats, however this can be seen as overplaying because there is not much room for improvement for V.
On the turn and with a depth of 100bb you could turn your hand into a bluff. Here you have more possibilities to represent draws in your range. But calling is also a valid option, when you represent a wider range than V (and therefore there are more draws in your range).
Obviously calling the turn definitely commits you to this pot. Even more so when fifth street is an absolute brick.
It's true that V should have 88 in his range a lot of the time. But here you should consider some additional aspects:
1) In zoom the game is more volatile and therefore there is more aggressiveness than in regular tables.
2) You are playing 0.25/0.50 bets, so you should start thinking in terms of range vs. range and more interest in MDF considerations.
3) The river street is the most neutral card in the deck.
Greetings.

 

[Backlash]

Your gut told you it was a fold. Always go with your gut and live to fight another day with a stronger hand.