How Do You Play Top Set on a Coordinated River?

[amts]

Hand Scenario:​

• Flop: Q♠ 6♣ 7♣
• Turn: 10♦
• River: 9♣

You're holding Q♦ Q♥ — flopped top set. You bet the flop and turn, and your opponent just calls both streets.
On the river, the board is super wet — flushes and straights are both possible.


Suddenly, your opponent leads out with a pot-sized bet.

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Discussion:​

What’s your move here?

• Do you call and hope your set is still good?
• Do you fold, fearing a made flush or straight?
• Do you ever raise in this spot?

Also: what range are you putting the opponent on after this line?

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🔥 Curious to hear how different players handle tough river spots like this. Would love your input!

 

[TeUnit]

You look at the villans stats and look at the villans line and if it makes sense.

This exact scenario happened to me yesterday in a CC game and I snap called the villans river shove because his line made no sense for the hand he was representing.

 

[SPANKYSN]

A single 8 seems remote, unless A8 suited. Flush draw that hits on the river is a possibility. All that being said, I would make the call because a set of Queens is too strong to fold. Sometimes you have to hold your nose, close your eyes and jump...wait till your feet (or hand) hit something.

 

[primrose]

Did you use an LLM to generate this? It kind of looks that way. Also because in the other thread, you said there are flushes possible when there aren't.

Regardless, you didn't tell us the preflop action so the hand can't be analyzed. It matters whether villain has a BB defending range or a BN cold-calling range.

 

[fundiver199]

Fold. People are rarely bluffing, when all the draws got there, since in order to do that they have to turn a made hand into a bluff. You also block top pair, which would be the most likely made hand to call both flop and turn bets.

 

[fundiver199]

It matters whether villain has a BB defending range or a BN cold-calling range.

The opponent led the river, so obviously Hero is in position. Which mean that either the opponent is in the blinds, or they called a 3-bet out of position, or they limp-called preflop. And yeah this does matter, as does also the bet sizes used on the flop and turn. But even without that info I will say, that this is a massively underbluffed spot.

A flush or straight is leading this river, because all the hands, that were betting flop and turn for value, are now going to check back. I guess 54 is a missed draw, but unless they can have 54o, its only 4 combos, and not a whole lot of other stuff makes sense. If people have for instance two pair or a set, they are not leading for pot, when there are 4 cards to a straight and 3 to a flush.

We also dont have a club in our hand, so we do not block any of the possible flushes. Even if we want to defend "correctly", the Villain is so polarized in this spot, that hands like or are more profitable to call with than . So its one of those, where we just have to accept, that we got the worst possible river card and action, and that our hand, which was very strong until the river, is now nothing more than a bad bluff catcher.

 

[primrose]

Yeah, you're probably right that most (all?) situations will come out as a fold regardless, so in that sense it doesn't "matter", but I have this reluctance to think about the hand when elementary components are missing.

Without the clubs it would probably make the difference because a limp-call range contains fewer 8s than a SB defending range, which again contains fewer than a BB defending range.

 

[fundiver199]

Without the clubs it would probably make the difference because a limp-call range contains fewer 8s than a SB defending range, which again contains fewer than a BB defending range.

Especially with the full pot sizing I think, this is a flush far more often than a straight. The only 8X, that really makes sense, is 98. But that hand got there on the turn, so there has to be at least some frequency of it waking up on the turn. And if it just check-called the turn, then why lead river for full pot, when it now loses to a flush and chop with another 8?

So I actually think, not having a club in our hand is really important here. There are 3 combos of QQ, but only this one does not have a club. So its not like, we are folding everything, just because we fold this combo. We should have a flush ourselfes a decent amount of the time and many other hands with a single club, which are better bluff catchers than top set with no club.

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

blindly betting on a coordinated board like that isnt the way to go.

but i get the top set thinking. just utterly despise the cordinated board.

I would suggest working on your board texture skills, then think about bet sizing so the situation doesnt get out of hand and you can act more confidently. And work on what you think their range is. And you need to work on playing sfreets with those boards.

however unlikely, set over set is possible and two pair of the suited variety makes sense.

that Q on the board screams not set but more likely Aq and if they have middle or bottom set then theyre wringing their hands and cant wait for you to keep giving them money.

and you have no idea where you were in the hand with your betting.

and its all about position there as well. think about that same hand while in position,lol.

or depending on the action preflop they could have an overpair.

or depending on what level youre playing have a6/7/t and thinking youre bluffing with ak because youre playing too many hands or whatever and they think they can bluff you off a hand.

or suited connectors,l ol then there are other issues that folks have mentioned, the list goes on and on of what they might be holding but it doesnt matter.

i believe your job with that board was to control the pot while considering reverse implied odds and not the ive got the set and im invincible mentality so Im betting the flop and the turn, out of position and the other issues with this hand.

this hand is way above just that "paying more attentiin to what youre holding" mentality as I tried to point out.

if you ballooned the pot up and you have your mind set then go with the read if pot committed and deal with it if it doesnt work out.

but i would think, out of position, coordinated board, reverse implied odds rather than getting up from the table, walking to the parking lot mumbling negreanu mickey mouse #$%+ connectors , trap me?

i trapped myself with my play.

how in the world did i put a full buy in the middle of the table?

how in the world did i balloon that pot from 30 to 300!

lol somebody would say you lost a lot of ev playing it cautiously not getting . . . lol yeaaah.

its a lot less headaches and a lot less trips home early made up the difference.

and its way easier to deal with once you understand ppl are still going to make mistakes so there will be better spots.

gl dealing with it.

 

[LUKADONCICMVP]

I fold cause I am going lose cause site hates me

 

[fundiver199]

blindly betting on a coordinated board like that isnt the way to go.

Of course top set should bet flop and turn for value. Its the pure nuts on the flop and the second nuts on the turn losing only to 98.

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

hi fun (enjoy your posts,) all i will do here is point the OP to topics such as position, pot control, coordinated boards etc so they can research and work on those and form their opinion of how to deal with the situation.

so the best answer i can give is work on their game so theyre aware of the situation preflop.

this situation isnt as common as how you would play qq with overs but ppl tend to remember these types of hands more often because they're for whole buyins so i would advise them to be aware of these spots and have a gameplan before entering the pot and if possible, avoid playing those tough spots by blindly doing something so the game is easier, way easier.

thats what i was trying to allude to in my post.

the way i see the situatiion as played is you win a buyin or lose a buyin or even worst, you pump the pot not knowing where you are and lol fold to pressure while leaving a nice chunk of your stack on the table lol .

or you can see coordinated board, out of position, say, lets relax, try to take it easy and get to showdown and wait for the next spot where you're in position and its not a coordinated board or name your favorable detail to where the OP is more confident in what to do.

and thats another issue with this hand.

the op played the hand so they're unsure and not confident in their actions and is second guessing themselves where if they planned the hand out preflop would know exactly how to handle every street and have an idea of how much they woukd willing to to risk waaaaay before getting to the flop,

the poster could infer from their poker guru how to play it and i'd bet someone would say you're if you're pot committed you have to go with it or look at the outs and combos and youre an x amount fav, so go with it.

And I could tell someone how i would play it but my goal was first and foremost to protect the buyins and put myself in spots where with my limited game knowledge could turn a profit and thats all that mattered and nothing else.

as my game expanded with my confidence and a few other things then i would try the harder spots.

And max deep against another deep stack (and again, something else to look at with this hand is the effective stack of the hand as itll play differently against someone that has like 1/3 of your stack vs playing another deepstack imo) but whatever, anyway, with that hand, I'm just looking for better spots to put a full buyin at risk.

and my silly opinion or that of some guru that probably plays way higher doesn't matter because everybodys game knowledge is probably different than the op and if theyre not ready for that situation or if theyre not familiar with the setup then theyre going to be at the later streets wondering what they did wrong.

they're going to have to find what works for them and not follow someone.

if theyre just looking down at cards going off ignoring everything else while pumping streets blindly then . . lol as i tried to point out, theyre far away from getting to the next step of figuring out how to play the streets.

theyve got to go back to preflop planning was my point so they know what to do on later streets!

and like forrest would say, lolol thats all i have to say on that, lol.

gl folks

 

[fundiver199]

you pump the pot not knowing where you are

On the flop we have the nuts, so we know, we are far ahead, regardless what our opponent has. On the turn we have the second nuts, so we know, we are likely still far ahead, and when our opponent has the nuts, we still have a 10 out redraw to a boat. Not putting in chips, when we are this far ahead of the opponents range, is a huge mistake.

and lol fold to pressure while leaving a nice chunk of your stack on the table lol .

Its not folding to pressure. Its accepting the fact, that the river card drastically reduced the value of our hand.
If the board runs out , and the opponent donks into us, then we are not folding. We are at least calling and perhaps even considering a raise for value.
Another example could be Hero holding on . On this flop Hero should clearly bet for value. The opponent check to Hero and then call his bet. Turn is . Now Hero lose to a few more hands, but he still beat a lot of other hands, that will call, so he should still bet for value. The opponent once again call. River is , and now the opponent lead into Hero. Now the situation has drastically changed, because all the made hands, that Hero were getting value from, now beat him. So Hero now only has a weak bluff catcher and should probably fold. Or if he thinks, his opponent is able to fold trips with a weak kicker, perhaps raise and turn his counterfeited two pair into a bluff.

 

[WrongUsername]

i play as fast as possible.

 

[Magallaneroy]

Check and hope that my trio hold, this kind of hands are crazy and can make you lose a lot.