€400 NL HE Full Ring: How should you play this set on the River?

[primrose]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$2/$4

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

€

In this hand, UTG+1 opens to 16 and UTG+2 flats. I'm in the LJ with and decide to flat as well. The BB also calls, making it a 4way pot.

These are all players I don't remember seeing before today, but I have already seen a bunch on this day -- and based on my observations, UTG+1 and UTG+2 looked like pretty typical weak live players, whereas BB was very aggressive, ran some huge bets before, and often enough that probably some of them were bluffs (even though he never tabled a bluff).

I think UTG+1 had a big stack, but I don't remember. UTG+2 had around 300 chips. I had around 600. BB had about 500.

The flop comes (Pot=66).

BB checks. UTG+1 bets 20. UTG+2 calls 20.

What should you do here? And why? Write your thoughts before opening the spoiler. (Edit: thread title should say "Flop", not "River", I'm sorry, but can't edit it.)

Rest of the hand:

Spoiler

I call. BB raises to 120. UTG+1 and UTG+2 fold, and I call. Turn comes , giving me a monster. BB all-ins for 400 and I call; River doesn't complete the flush and BB mucks without showing.

The reason I posted this hand is because I remember some past discussion on fast vs. slowplaying -- and since this board has two connected cards of the same suit, I expect most people wanted to raise here. So I wanted to provide an argument/example in the opposite direction.

Now obviously this hand doesn't prove anything -- maybe calling was the lower EV play and it just happened to work out. However, I think it is worth reflecting on this hand. If we had raised, BB most likely would have folded (remember that he didn't show his hand, so it was likely a flush draw, possibly complete air), and then UTG+1 and UTG+2 probably would have also folded. If you played this hand and that was the outcome you might even feel good about it, but the truth is that, by fastplaying, you lost out on a whopping 120 Big Blinds. That is gigantic! That's my hourly rate of idk how many hours, but way too many.

When I played, I did think about raising this hand, and in fact, it was my first intention because the board is connected. But then I was thinking, hold on, this is not a limped pot, this was a 4BB raise from early position, and the connected cards are 7 and 5. There are not that many staight draws here. If this had been , I would have raised. If it had been a limped pot, I would have raised. But as is, it's mostly the flush draw we're worried about, plus straight draws from the BB, who has a much wider range. And you can't refuse to slowplay just because there is a flush draw -- 60% of all flops have flush draws!

I know it's very easy for me to say this given that the hand went in the most perfect manner possible after the call -- and yes, the Turn could have instead been a and I might have had to fold -- but I also suspect that calling was in fact higher EV, despite the risk.

 

[blueskies]

In a 4way wet flop, typically you will wanna raise. But in this scenario, since two of the three villains already folded, you can indeed consider just calling against opponents that will spazz out.

Anyway, remember bb cuz you will wanna play him again. Money tree.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Seems fine to setmine here.

Flop
I am raising here all day long. Its a small C-bet, and you want to get value from top pair and draws right now, before the board makes your decisions more difficult or kill your action. If it was a dry flop like K83 rainbow, then I would be more inclined to slowplay, but not with draws on board. I will admit though, that if BB is a complete spewfish, and UTG+1 is a tight player, who might get away from hands like AA or AK, if he get raised on the flop, then this play is ok.

 

[primrose]

I am raising here all day long. Its a small C-bet, and you want to get value from top pair and draws right now, before the board makes your decisions more difficult or kill your action. If it was a dry flop like K83 rainbow, then I would be more inclined to slowplay, but not with draws on board. I will admit though, that if BB is a complete spewfish, and UTG+1 is a tight player, who might get away from hands like AA or AK, if he get raised on the flop, then this play is ok.

For me it's like, if it's K83 rainbow, it's a trivial slowplay unless I have a specific reason not to, whereas with this board it's close. And it's not like I had detailed information on these opponents, I've played like 60 hands with them. I knew about what I wrote in the OP.

 

[Station_Master]

I dont mind call on the flop if BB is super aggressive.

 

[eetenor]

In this hand, UTG+1 opens to 16 and UTG+2 flats. I'm in the LJ with and decide to flat as well. The BB also calls, making it a 4way pot.

These are all players I don't remember seeing before today, but I have already seen a bunch on this day -- and based on my observations, UTG+1 and UTG+2 looked like pretty typical weak live players, whereas BB was very aggressive, ran some huge bets before, and often enough that probably some of them were bluffs (even though he never tabled a bluff).

I think UTG+1 had a big stack, but I don't remember. UTG+2 had around 300 chips. I had around 600. BB had about 500.

The flop comes (Pot=66).

BB checks. UTG+1 bets 20. UTG+2 calls 20.

What should you do here? And why? Write your thoughts before opening the spoiler. (Edit: thread title should say "Flop", not "River", I'm sorry, but can't edit it.)

Rest of the hand:

Spoiler

I call. BB raises to 120. UTG+1 and UTG+2 fold, and I call. Turn comes , giving me a monster. BB all-ins for 400 and I call; River doesn't complete the flush and BB mucks without showing.

The reason I posted this hand is because I remember some past discussion on fast vs. slowplaying -- and since this board has two connected cards of the same suit, I expect most people wanted to raise here. So I wanted to provide an argument/example in the opposite direction.

Now obviously this hand doesn't prove anything -- maybe calling was the lower EV play and it just happened to work out. However, I think it is worth reflecting on this hand. If we had raised, BB most likely would have folded (remember that he didn't show his hand, so it was likely a flush draw, possibly complete air), and then UTG+1 and UTG+2 probably would have also folded. If you played this hand and that was the outcome you might even feel good about it, but the truth is that, by fastplaying, you lost out on a whopping 120 Big Blinds. That is gigantic! That's my hourly rate of idk how many hours, but way too many.

When I played, I did think about raising this hand, and in fact, it was my first intention because the board is connected. But then I was thinking, hold on, this is not a limped pot, this was a 4BB raise from early position, and the connected cards are 7 and 5. There are not that many staight draws here. If this had been , I would have raised. If it had been a limped pot, I would have raised. But as is, it's mostly the flush draw we're worried about, plus straight draws from the BB, who has a much wider range. And you can't refuse to slowplay just because there is a flush draw -- 60% of all flops have flush draws!

I know it's very easy for me to say this given that the hand went in the most perfect manner possible after the call -- and yes, the Turn could have instead been a and I might have had to fold -- but I also suspect that calling was in fact higher EV, despite the risk.

Always raise bottom set on draw heavy boards with a paint card showing---Now how much to raise is the question? What is the max bet that a flush draw will call? What is the max bet Kx will call? will both those hands call the same larger pot plus bet? If not what size pot or more?

 

[MatheusANF]

Raise this flop man

 

[primrose]

Raise this flop man

Oh! Okay I was stubborn before, but this argument has me convinced. I shall refund villain his stack and add a letter apologizing for winning it with a bad call.