$200 NL HE 6-max: Would you have played two pair Ax like that multiway?

[Mr_Kk13]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$1/$2

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

How do you approach multiway spots in general?

 

[Aballinamion]

How do you approach multiway spots in general?

Thanks for your post. By the way, your channel here is awesome, I will follow every hand you post.
I will make my comments, as always, based on the strategy of the micros.
I like to play multi-way pots in two different manners:

a) Versus loose passive and loose aggressive players in the pot I like to play more passively, depending on my general equity. For this particular case if a fish OOP limps into the pot and I hit top two pair, I’m firing the flop ASAP to get value of worst aces, draws and weaker hands that could call and also to try to eliminate one of the players out of the pot.
I would play pretty much the same as BU had played: only betting and calling, never raising.

b) Versus average regulars or “reculars” (recreational players that know a couple of theory, ABC players, etc: recular means recreational+regular), versus these kind of villains I elect to play more aggressively, specially when I have draws: the reason is simple: if I overbet turn versus two regulars they will see it as a very strong move that I don’t do it often and they will tend to fold more than the fishes/whales.
If I shove rivers with my missed draws, regulars will have a hard time calling, specially if I’m out of position, for this shoving versus two good players represents a ton of strength and therefore I already have enough fold equity to justify my jamming either OTT or OTR.

The way this particular hand was played was pretty much standard, because there was a limper into the pot. Flop, turn and river were okay. The hand was well played by the player in BU.

Best regards;

 

[mcbeaker]

The final raise on the river is a mistake because it gives BB the opportunity to fold his two pair. A call is better.
Other than that, there's hardly anything bad to say about BU's play.

 

[Station_Master]

Great to see that there are fish at 200z, gives us all some hope!

Seems a fairly standard line from the BU facing the donk. Never fold top two on a fairly dry board, especially when the fish can be value betting worse.

 

[eduardo8269]

There are always amateurs A3 fold easy with 2 glue amateurs

 

[Aballinamion]

Great to see that there are fish at 200z, gives us all some hope!

Seems a fairly standard line from the BU facing the donk. Never fold top two on a fairly dry board, especially when the fish can be value betting worse.

It’s a hand played 3 years ago, but take a look at this:

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/024uGLT3q

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/100-nlhe-6-max-bb-defense-449290/

Unbelievable or what?

 

[Station_Master]

Wow what is the point!

 

[Aballinamion]

Wow what is the point!

Is this an affirmation or would you be asking?

 

[Station_Master]

Is this an affirmation or would you be asking?

Actually I typed, 'wow what a punt', but it got auto corrected, though also, what is the point of shoving A7dd!

 

[fundiver199]

I am not quite sure, which player is referred to here? But since CO and BTN showed down, so that we know their cards, lets look at the hand from both their perspective:

Preflop
CO start the hand without a full stack, and he limp, so already here we have two clear fish tells. And for that reason I like the decision of BTN to isolate to a nice large size here to get max value. As for COs line, I probably dont need to say, that limp-calling is bad. He should either open fold or make a standard raise and then fold to a 3-bet.

Flop
CO should check his entire range, and BTN should C-bet. Given that BTN used exploitative large sizing preflop I dont quite understand the decision to go so small now. Yes its likely solver approved, but he is not playing against a GTO type opponent here. So why not go larger strictly for value, like he did preflop? CO has to call given the small sizing, but his situation is already not very good, when BB has also called.

Turn
CO should check again, so that he have hands, that can call all the way down and catch a bluff or let BTN valueown himself with hands like AQ or AJ. Facing the almost full pot sized donk bet I do like BTNs decision to just call to allow BB to potentially stay in the hand, and to allow CO to hang himself on the river. BTN could also just get it in though, since CO is rarely leading this big and then folding to a raise. The advantage of getting it in is mostly, that another heart could kill river action, or BB could potentially get there for cheap.

River
As played CO should jam. BTN can either overjam or call with intentions of calling a BB jam. I lean towards a jam, because I think, BB is more likely to call with a worse hand, than he is to jam it, and I dont think, his range for giving action for 85$ or 140$ is all that different. So I feel, that if BTN just call, he is just letting BB keep his last 65$, when BB is coolered, and BTN is still getting stacked, if BB has a set.

Result
A bit of a cooler for CO obviously, but he could easily have avoided it by raising preflop and then fold to a 3-bet. In that way he would only have lost 2,5BB instead of his whole stack. The hand is a good example of, what Blackrain79 call the "snowball effect". A small and seemingly innocent mistake preflop start a snowball, and when it reaches the bottom of the hill (AKA the river) it has grown into a huge ugly pile of snow.

 

[Mr_Kk13]

Thanks for your post. By the way, your channel here is awesome, I will follow every hand you post.
I will make my comments, as always, based on the strategy of the micros.
I like to play multi-way pots in two different manners:

a) Versus loose passive and loose aggressive players in the pot I like to play more passively, depending on my general equity. For this particular case if a fish OOP limps into the pot and I hit top two pair, I’m firing the flop ASAP to get value of worst aces, draws and weaker hands that could call and also to try to eliminate one of the players out of the pot.
I would play pretty much the same as BU had played: only betting and calling, never raising.

b) Versus average regulars or “reculars” (recreational players that know a couple of theory, ABC players, etc: recular means recreational+regular), versus these kind of villains I elect to play more aggressively, specially when I have draws: the reason is simple: if I overbet turn versus two regulars they will see it as a very strong move that I don’t do it often and they will tend to fold more than the fishes/whales.
If I shove rivers with my missed draws, regulars will have a hard time calling, specially if I’m out of position, for this shoving versus two good players represents a ton of strength and therefore I already have enough fold equity to justify my jamming either OTT or OTR.

The way this particular hand was played was pretty much standard, because there was a limper into the pot. Flop, turn and river were okay. The hand was well played by the player in BU.

Best regards;

Thanks a lot! I will be posting regularly, shorts or standard videos. I hope the videos are helpful and give ideas for studying.
PS: I will be using the term "recular", it is the first time I'm listening to it!
PS 2: I agree with your analysis!

 

[Mr_Kk13]

Great to see that there are fish at 200z, gives us all some hope!

Seems a fairly standard line from the BU facing the donk. Never fold top two on a fairly dry board, especially when the fish can be value betting worse.

There are fish at every stake. I have recorded hands from higher stakes that the plays are at least questionable. As we improve and move up the stakes, we will be able to exploit them. Until then, keep grinding!

 

[Aballinamion]

There are fish at every stake. I have recorded hands from higher stakes that the plays are at least questionable. As we improve and move up the stakes, we will be able to exploit them. Until then, keep grinding!

There are fish at every stake. I have recorded hands from higher stakes that the plays are at least questionable. As we improve and move up the stakes, we will be able to exploit them. Until then, keep grinding!

I agree. But there are some specific strategy for high stakes that played use to limp preflop and they are not fishes (NLHE 1000 and higher). I have no idea why.
For example, I saw the football and poker player Ronaldo “fenômeno”, to limp into the pot quite a few times.
You are very kind, thanks!

 

[SL-247]

The last raise on the river is a mistake because it gives BB a chance to drop his two pairs. The phone call is better.
Otherwise, there's hardly anything bad to say about the BU game.

BB had a straight draw, not two pairs.

 

[mcbeaker]

BB had a straight draw, not two pairs.

Most of the time, but not always. There is a little chance, he's holding A6. So better try to get additional 43 BB instead of forcing him to fold. A draw he would have fold anyway. So it remains, the raise makes no sense.

 

[SL-247]

Most of the time, but not always. There's a small chance, he has an A6. So you'd better try to get an extra 43 BB instead of making him fold. If he drew, he would still discard his cards. It remains so, there is no point in raising it.

What if he and the A6 didn't believe that we had AK and would level our reraise?

 

[mcbeaker]

What if he and the A6 didn't believe that we had AK and would level our reraise?

Okay, if you have a read on him, that he is a super calling fish, then you have to raise. But normally: NL 200, a river call against the all in bet AND a reraise-shove with less than top two? Ahm, nope.

 

[fundiver199]

But normally: NL 200, a river call against the all in bet AND a reraise-shove with less than top two? Ahm, nope.

But do you really think, he is giving action that much wider against an all-in and a call, which commits BTN to the pot? Like if he has AT or AJ, does he think, he have the best hand and stick in an overcall? I think, such hands get thrown away regardless.

 

[mcbeaker]

But do you really think, he is giving action that much wider against an all-in and a call, which commits BTN to the pot? Like if he has AT or AJ, does he think, he have the best hand and stick in an overcall? I think, such hands get thrown away regardless.

Yes, I think so too. AT and AJ would almost always fold. But it was about A6, maybe also A8. And these hands could overcall, since they could assume that BU could call the loose player's all in with AQ. But BU would hardly jam with AQ over the all in itself. My assessment on NL 200.

 

[Mr_Kk13]

There are fish at every stake. I have recorded hands from higher stakes that the plays are at least questionable. As we improve and move up the stakes, we will be able to exploit them. Until then, keep grinding!

I agree. But there are some specific strategy for high stakes that played use to limp preflop and they are not fishes (NLHE 1000 and higher). I have no idea why.
For example, I saw the football and poker player Ronaldo “fenômeno”, to limp into the pot quite a few times.
You are very kind, thanks!

Limping in higher stakes in part of a good pre-flop strategy due to the rake being lower, thus you can play more hands pre-flop profitably, but some of them can't be raised, thus you limp them, and you mix in some stronger hands to your limping range to balance that.
PS: Ronaldo is a fish, and he did not follow the aforementioned limping strategy

 

[fundiver199]

Yes, I think so too. AT and AJ would almost always fold. But it was about A6, maybe also A8. And these hands could overcall, since they could assume that BU could call the loose player's all in with AQ. But BU would hardly jam with AQ over the all in itself. My assessment on NL 200.

It is a fair point, that when BTN overjam the river, his hand looks pretty much exactly like, what it is: Something that was slowplaying on the turn, and now wants to pimp out as much value as possible. So I can get on board with just calling on the river to get a bit more action from SB. Realistically I dont think, BTN gets much action from SB though. Ideally BTN wants CO to be bluffing and BB to be coolered with a worse AX. But how often is CO bluffing this river, when two opponents called him on the turn? I think, CO is skewed towards value, which is either a set or AX. And if CO have AX, then there is only one more ace left in the deck. Which mean, that BB is more likely to have some kind of busted draw than a hand, he is willing to overcall with on the river.

 

[mcbeaker]

It is a fair point, that when BTN overjam the river, his hand looks pretty much exactly like, what it is: Something that was slowplaying on the turn, and now wants to pimp out as much value as possible. So I can get on board with just calling on the river to get a bit more action from SB. Realistically I dont think, BTN gets much action from SB though. Ideally BTN wants CO to be bluffing and BB to be coolered with a worse AX. But how often is CO bluffing this river, when two opponents called him on the turn? I think, CO is skewed towards value, which is either a set or AX. And if CO have AX, then there is only one more ace left in the deck. Which mean, that BB is more likely to have some kind of busted draw than a hand, he is willing to overcall with on the river.

We already had this very topic above. It is undisputed: The chance is small that BB has A6 or A8. But if he has it, we'll scare him away with a re-jam. And this is unnecessary, because the re-jam has no advantages over a call. Against a re-jam, BB will call with all hands that beat us, and fold with all hands that we beat. If we call, on the other hand, he can call with a few hands that we also beat.

 

[fundiver199]

Against a re-jam, BB will call with all hands that beat us, and fold with all hands that we beat.

I dont agree, that BB will fold all hands, that are worse than top two pair. But we are beating a dead horse now, so lets end it here