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Message: [QUOTE="teh_colonel_saigon, post: 5641880, member: 107240"] Thank you all for the input. Both hands here are from yesterday morning, and I ran into that situation at least twice more as the day went on (raise, 3bet, to us usually in the blinds with AK...) [B] I agree that just shoving over the 3-bet is +EV since we have massive fold equity, and it is certainly better than a 3x 4bet. [/B] But I'm not sold on it being the absolute best play. Maybe vs the UTG open, 3bet it would be an all-in or fold since ranges are so strong there (or should be). I'm not too happy about a call either in most spots like that. we would call with hands like 99-JJ, so maybe we could fit it into that range. But then what about our 4-bet cold range? Its just KK, AA (qq?)? Likely profitable at 2nl but what about after that? Also, I looked at [B]AQ[/B] in this same situation. I cut out some math but hopefully you can see my thinking. [B]Shoving AQ even over that 3bet sizing isn't profitable[/B]. (I'll show below- even with a wide BTN vs CO merged 3betting) ----- Lets assume these are reasonable players- CO opens and BTN 3bets. I've yet to see a ploarized 3bet range at 2nl, so its merged for this guy. [B] CO open:[/B] 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo -[B]A total of 257c[/B] Open to 3bb [B] BTN 3bets:[/B] 99+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AQo+,KQo -[B]A total of [/B][B]81c[/B] Raise to 9bb AQ has 34% equity vs both their ranges. Let's say they would call the shove (100bb) with AA-QQ, AK -[B] 24 remaining combos. [/B]The odds that they both fold then are: CO folds x BTN folds: 233 /257 x 57 /81 = 63% We lose big time when they call as we only have 25% continuing equity, so we lose an Average of 75bb then... making the total play -EV by like 40bb. -------- [B]But a 4 bet bluff[/B] to 20bb over the 12bb 3! with [B]AQ is also slightly losing[/B], at least in this model. They flat now with TT+, AK. (Realistic?) [B]New fold equity: [/B]47% [B]We fold to 5-bet all-in:[/B] 13% (AA, KK) [B]One + more V Call: [/B]40% (TT-QQ, AK) -We have 33% equity vs this range ( I just did this assuming BTN alone calls) It might be break even if we stuck to a 2x 4bet sizing, but I think it's a spot to avoid. I have about -1bb EV for the 20bb 4bet ------ I'm not too worried about 'balancing' our cold 4-bet spot, [B]but I do want to find a way to play good hands when we are stuck between two strong ranges.[/B] Maybe you just have to get out of the way. P.S.- I think what I can start doing is leaning towards a call with AK, 4bet with KK,AA... but generally look to do so vs. 3 bets as a whole and include some polarized bluffs in as 4-bets vs a generic 3betting wide range. [/QUOTE]

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