$10 NLHE Full Ring: TPTK against river shove

[blueskies]

A new guy sits to my immediately right. His first hand. He didn't wait for BB so his first hand was as UTG+1.

He just checks. I have AsKh and I raised it to 42c. Everyone folds and he calls as I expected. At this point he could have any two cards.

Flop's Ad5s5c.

He checks I cbet 3/4 pot. He calls.

Turn's the 9s.

Same action I bet 3/4 pot he calls.

River's a 8s. He instashoves. It's about $7 into a ~$6 pot.

I used up the time clock and folded. Didn't think he would do this with only an ace unless he's dumb. Doubtful he was floating with two spades and got runner runner flush or like 67.

Dunno if he flopped a 5? Wouldn't he check raise me on the turn with trips? I mean if he flopped a boat maybe just flat twice. Floated with 88 or 99 and got lucky? A8 maybe?

Never played him before so don't know if he floated me twice and made a move? Rarely see that at 10NL. (At Chico it's the lowest possible level) Just couldn't figure out a hand that I could beat that would take that line unless he's some maniac, which I had no info about.

Of course, I am assuming he knows what he's doing.

What do you think? Would you call?

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EDIT: as I am typing this I went back to the table to observe. He is a bad player. Maybe I did get blown off the hand by a crazy move. Goddam if I had seen him play beforehand for a bit I would have called.

 

[eetenor]

A new guy sits to my immediately right. His first hand. He didn't wait for BB so his first hand was as UTG+1.

He just checks. I have AsKh and I raised it to 42c. Everyone folds and he calls as I expected. At this point he could have any two cards.

Flop's Ad5s5c.

He checks I cbet 3/4 pot. He calls.

Turn's the 9s.

Same action I bet 3/4 pot he calls.

River's a 8s. He instashoves. It's about $7 into a ~$6 pot.

I used up the time clock and folded. Didn't think he would do this with only an ace unless he's dumb. Doubtful he was floating with two spades and got runner runner flush or like 67.

Dunno if he flopped a 5? Wouldn't he check raise me on the turn with trips? I mean if he flopped a boat maybe just flat twice. Floated with 88 or 99 and got lucky? A8 maybe?

Never played him before so don't know if he floated me twice and made a move? Rarely see that at 10NL. (At Chico it's the lowest possible level) Just couldn't figure out a hand that I could beat that would take that line unless he's some maniac, which I had no info about.

Of course, I am assuming he knows what he's doing.

What do you think? Would you call?

-----
EDIT: as I am typing this I went back to the table to observe. He is a bad player. Maybe I did get blown off the hand by a crazy move. Goddam if I had seen him play beforehand for a bit I would have called.

Thank you for posting.

Why are we betting 3/4 pot vs a limper on this dry flop? Why did you think you could get max value from an unknown limper on that board?
When we are called why are we betting 3/4 pot turn when we block the A and our V can have a five?
When the V shoves river and we fold why do we care if we were bluffed if the V shows us later they will give us their stack at some point? We can just focus on getting those chips now.
Why do we think we were bluffed when this V shows they could have had any combo of better hands on the river?

It is good to think through the hand logically but if the V is unknown they are unknown. Our training is for us to look forward- the looking forward part of this is how do we play this V next time and how do we play other unknowns in similar spots. Which refers back to our bet sizing choices from above.

Hope this helps

 

[Sidetracked]

I was going to say that if he posts at a full ring table at UTG+1, the guy is just plain bad.

And given that, looking for rhyme or reason to his actions is going to be a bit futile.

 

[gustav197poker]

I agree with the previous posts. I would just add that a villain should fold a high percentage of times after yours barrels. Here it is not well distinguished how wide you want your villain to see you from early position self induced.
Assuming you're in a tight position, when V overbetting you are more likely to run into the strongest possible hands on this texture. The V needs to bluff a some times With mid-range hands like second or third nut flush, since you are blocking aces. And since V represents a strong position (of course his representation is questionable, but the reality is that he wanted to play from a tight position) there should not be many fives in his range, unless is really very wide and he decide to continue preflop with 5-5. Either way I think your fold is reasonable.
Greetings.

 

[Figaroo2]

As played just fold.
3/4 pot on both flop and turn is over inflating the pot with this hand strength.
Either bet smaller on the flop and turn or as played having bet big on flop id check the turn. Checking the turn controls the pot size and allows you to call v most of his river sizings.
I would be 33-35% on the flop (exploit bigger v fish).

 

[liuouhgkres]

I think against GTO bot you should call with this hand, but I'm sure people hugely underbluff there, so you can safely fold.

 

[Jarud]

To answer your question, If i was villian and I flopped a 5 I definitely wouldn't be check raising on a flop this dry, i would just let you keep barrelling with your range which contains a ton of Ax. When you bet again on turn your range narrows even further, I suspect villian didn't want you to check back river so he is shoving for value.
I would of bet small on flop or maybe even checked it back.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Pretty standard to raise to this size over someone, who have posted.

Flop
Its a very dry paired board, so as others have said, I would not go for this very large bet size. There are no draws for you to worry about, and when you make this very large bet, you are mostly getting value from his worse AX hands, whereas a lot of other hands have an easy fold. Stack protection is also a bit of a consideration here, since he can absolutely have a 5 in his range after posting and then calling your raise.

Turn
When he has called your large flop bet, we can pretty much narrow his range down to AX, 5X or maybe a sticky pocket pair. He is not still in there with KJ or J9 or 98 for absolutely nothing. And when you bet very large again, you start to create a situation, where you might not be in great shape against the hands, he continue with. So I would size smaller here, and you could even consider checking back.

River
His donk shove can look a little bluffy, but its difficult for me to see, which hands he get to the river with, that need to bluff? If his range after calling flop and turn are mainly AX and 5X, then he cant suddenly have QJ on the river and use it as a bluff. And I dont think, a fishy player is ever taking his A4 and turning it into a bluff. With that kind of hand he will just check to you again and hope, you check back. So I think, you are beat here, and I agree with your decision to fold.

Conclusion
It sucks not to get to showdown with TPTK, but this is, what happen, when you build to large a pot. If you had kept the pot smaller, you would have kept his range wider, and then his river donk bet would most likely also have come in smaller. In which case it would be much more reasonable to lock him up and see, what he had. Or if he still jammed, it would be a massive overbet giving him much worse risk/reward on a bluff, and allowing you to lose less, when you fold.

 

[blueskies]

The reason I bet 3/4 pot two streets is that at BOL and SB, the lowest stake is 10NL so there are a bunch of players who would normally be playing 2NL. They do call when they shouldn't and pot odds don't mean anything to them.

But the shove caught me off guard.

 

[fundiver199]

The reason I bet 3/4 pot two streets is that at BOL and SB, the lowest stake is 10NL so there are a bunch of players who would normally be playing 2NL. They do call when they shouldn't and pot odds don't mean anything to them.

Ok that might be. But I challenge you to think about, if even these players are paying 75% pot with a hand like KJ or QJ on A55 rainbow? I dont think so, so I will still maintain, that your sizing condense their range down to a very specific set of holdings even after the flop bet. The time to use large bet sizes are on dynamic boards like for instance QJ7 two spades, where they can have a ton of different draws, second or third pair or even just A high, that still has hope.