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Message: [QUOTE="fundiver199, post: 6373173, member: 397965"] Basically this argument boils down to, that when a relatively small country is assaulted by a larger neighbour, then the best thing, the rest of the world can do, is to not send weapons or other assistance, so that the assaulted country can surrender unconditionally to the attacker as soon as possible. Apart from the fact, that this completely ignore, that the vast majority of people in Ukraine dont want to come under russian rule (especially not now that they have been invaded), it also ignore the question of, what will happen, if Russia win the war? Lets say that Russia will be satisfied with grabbing some big pieces of land in the south and east of Ukraine, and that the government of Ukraine eventually agree to this, so that a peace treaty can be signed. Is this then going to mean a lasting peace, or will Russia just attack again, when they have gathered enough strenght to do so? The analysis in countries like USA, Poland and importantly Ukraine itself is, that the latter scenario is far more likely. And this is also supported by, what Putin have wrote and said during the years, including that the dissolution of the Sovjet Union was a big mistake, and his demand, that Nato withdraw troops from all of Eastern Europe. If this analysis is correct, then there will be no lasting peace, unless Russia is weakened to a point, where russian policy makers realise, that it would be totally suicidal to try another "special operation" again. Ideally there should also be a regime change in Kreml, but obviously this is not something, the outside would can constitute without invading Russia, which nobody wants to do. Yes the invasion of Irak in 2003 was wrong, but that does not mean, that supporting Ukraine in 2022 is wrong. There are also important nuances like the fact, there were UN sanctions in place against Irak, because the country has assaulted Kuwait in 1991. No such sanctions are in place against Ukraine, Ukraine is a democracy and Ukraine has not assaulted any other country. So Putin has absolutely no foundation for claiming, that he want to free the people of Ukraine, while there was at least some argument for freeing the people of Irak from their dictator. After he was captured, the people of Irak executed him, so at least some of them were not sad to see him go. The real problem was the chaos, which Irak then degraded into, because islamic fundamentalists supported by Iran tried to take over the country. As someone living in Europe I do actually feel, it benefits me, if Russia dont start any more wars after this one. So as long as the ukraineans are willing and able to continue their fight, I am all for supporting them, and I am also all for sanctions against Russia to limit the countrys ability to attack its neighbours. [/QUOTE]

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