$25 NLHE 6-max: Correct Fold?

basellne23 · Oct 11, 2020

Yatahay Network - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

CO: 104.96 BB
Hero (BTN): 111.72 BB
SB: 255.56 BB
BB: 141.08 BB
UTG: 180.24 BB
MP: 102.4 BB VPIP/PFR (22/19)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 8♥ 8♠

fold, MP raises to 2.4 BB, fold, Hero calls 2.4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (6.2 BB, 2 players) Q♦ 6♥ 5♦
MP bets 4.44 BB, Hero calls 4.44 BB

Turn: (15.08 BB, 2 players) 5♥
MP bets 7.52 BB, Hero raises to 22.56 BB, MP calls 15.04 BB

River: (60.2 BB, 2 players) 5♠
MP bets 37.72 BB, fold

MP wins 57.2 BB

Thought it was borderline. is this too nitty? flatting my 3bet on the turn indicated a wide range including diamonds and straights draw. But betting into me on the river indicates value imo, and I don't think bluffing a missed flush or straight into a board like that is happening after I raised the turn.
Thank you for everyones responses since I began posting here.

1player2 · Oct 13, 2020

Hello,

Tough decision but I think you made the correct play. This is a tough hand. Mp looks like he could have put you on a flush draw plus pair and jams the river to get you to fold your weaker pairs. He could have pocket queens as well. Tough hand but I like the fold.

vsawake01 · Oct 13, 2020

Agree with previous commenter. Good fold.
For me it look like missed flesh draw, but he could have xQ.

Sidetracked · Oct 13, 2020

Honestly, I think flatting your 3 bet on the turn actually narrows his range to mostly value.

Other than specifically a 5 (or boats), what are you repping with your turn raise?

300HPGOD · Oct 14, 2020

I like your play here on this hand with one exception that I will get into. First, I want to write that I agree with the flat call from the button. An argument can be made for 3 betting but depending on villains fold to 3 bet % the 3 bet will leave us in a weird spot when overcard or overcards flop. Calling and set mining with still some hand value as well makes more sense to me.

We need a plan for the hand before we take any action vs villains flop bet. Calling seems like the obvious choice but are we doing on the turn and river when other overcards come and we face future bets? It is very likely that we will face some aggression going forward in this hand and likely there will be at least one more overcard to an eight. I dont think folding on the flop is terrible if we are making up our mind that we folding to any turn bet unless a 7 or 8 hits. Thats nitty but we have to think about this before calling. I would be calling in game for sure but I would also have a plan on the turn that you come close to doing.

The turn is where the one exception I mentioned earlier comes in. My plan after calling the turn would be: fold to a bet larger than 60% of pot, fold when a card 10 or higher hits unless the bet is very small, if a card 9 or smaller comes then either check or little over min raise the villains bet as long as it is half pot or less. That does not cover all scenarios but we want to live the rest of our lives and not read my post. So with villains action here I like raising to 16BB and not to 22BB. I am not making this raise for value but am bluffing/blocking a river lead out bet of great size. If the villain re raises me here or leads on river of any decent size (over 40%) I will just fold and let it be. Often though we will just get called on our raise and then checked to us on the river. That will allow us to pot control since we see the showdown for only 9BB or so and will also make the villain define their hand. It also gives us some fold equity (not sure how much on a min raise but some will fold to any raise on the turn).

As played, river is a clear fold to me. Villain has a pair here and a lot of people over value their boat at times but what boat could he have that we beat? 7s maybe but I doubt they have 4s, 3s, or deuces so we lose to all boats.

tt124f · Oct 15, 2020

Sidetracked said:
Honestly, I think flatting your 3 bet on the turn actually narrows his range to mostly value.

Other than specifically a 5 (or boats), what are you repping with your turn raise?

300HPGOD said:
I like your play here on this hand with one exception that I will get into. First, I want to write that I agree with the flat call from the button. An argument can be made for 3 betting but depending on villains fold to 3 bet % the 3 bet will leave us in a weird spot when overcard or overcards flop. Calling and set mining with still some hand value as well makes more sense to me.

We need a plan for the hand before we take any action vs villains flop bet. Calling seems like the obvious choice but are we doing on the turn and river when other overcards come and we face future bets? It is very likely that we will face some aggression going forward in this hand and likely there will be at least one more overcard to an eight. I dont think folding on the flop is terrible if we are making up our mind that we folding to any turn bet unless a 7 or 8 hits. Thats nitty but we have to think about this before calling. I would be calling in game for sure but I would also have a plan on the turn that you come close to doing.

The turn is where the one exception I mentioned earlier comes in. My plan after calling the turn would be: fold to a bet larger than 60% of pot, fold when a card 10 or higher hits unless the bet is very small, if a card 9 or smaller comes then either check or little over min raise the villains bet as long as it is half pot or less. That does not cover all scenarios but we want to live the rest of our lives and not read my post. So with villains action here I like raising to 16BB and not to 22BB. I am not making this raise for value but am bluffing/blocking a river lead out bet of great size. If the villain re raises me here or leads on river of any decent size (over 40%) I will just fold and let it be. Often though we will just get called on our raise and then checked to us on the river. That will allow us to pot control since we see the showdown for only 9BB or so and will also make the villain define their hand. It also gives us some fold equity (not sure how much on a min raise but some will fold to any raise on the turn).

As played, river is a clear fold to me. Villain has a pair here and a lot of people over value their boat at times but what boat could he have that we beat? 7s maybe but I doubt they have 4s, 3s, or deuces so we lose to all boats.

Hi! Your ideas are inspiring to me, but I am little bit confused on your plan on turn. Since we flat at the BTU and flat the flop, there are not too many value hands we can represent besides maybe 5X diamond. Do we really expect any fold equity against better hands like 99? Also, do you think the busted draw will stop bluffing because our min-raise? Our line is wierd in opponent’s eyes.

Can you explain your thought process a little bit more? Because I have never raise this turn so I want to learn how this play works. Thanks!

300HPGOD · Oct 17, 2020

tt124f said:
Hi! Your ideas are inspiring to me, but I am little bit confused on your plan on turn. Since we flat at the BTU and flat the flop, there are not too many value hands we can represent besides maybe 5X diamond. Do we really expect any fold equity against better hands like 99? Also, do you think the busted draw will stop bluffing because our min-raise? Our line is wierd in opponent’s eyes.

Can you explain your thought process a little bit more? Because I have never raise this turn so I want to learn how this play works. Thanks!

When I make raises like this, yes I am foregoing giving the chance to villain to continue bluffing with hands that we beat. I am willing to give up that opportunity and potential value though to try to control the villain on the river. The raise I propose on the turn is not for value and you are correct in saying that it will not get many or any better hands to fold but what it should do is make a decision point in the hand for villain. They now have to decide what they are going do and also have to define their hand and start to reveal its true strength to us. That is my goal with this raise. Most people say you should never bet for information and I partly agree with that but the raise here is only a little for information and more for control of the hand. When you do this raise the villain will either think you are full of it or think you could have something. If they think you have something and get a little scared they will check to you on the river and not show any more aggression in the hand. If they think you are full of it then they might re raise in which case you can be sure you are beat and fold or they might think I am going to let this one bluff of his chips on the river to me and I will just call the min raise. If they think we will bluff off our chips on the river then the raise is successful since we will check behind on the river and get to a showdown much more cheaply then having to face a likely bet (possibly large) on the river by the villain.

To sum it up, raising on the river has the goal of getting to showdown the cheapest. Our plan would not be to put any more chips in but get the villain to halt their aggression. If they show aggression after the raise of any kind we are most likely beat. You cant overuse this play (meaning multiple times against the same villain unless you balance it). It wont always work but it can get you to a cheap showdown in those spots where you are marginal.

Think of how a blocker bet works when you are out of position. This is the same except you are doing the blocker bet as a raise on the street before the one you want to block.

eetenor · Oct 17, 2020

basellne23 said:
Yatahay Network - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

CO: 104.96 BB
Hero (BTN): 111.72 BB
SB: 255.56 BB
BB: 141.08 BB
UTG: 180.24 BB
MP: 102.4 BB VPIP/PFR (22/19)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 8♥ 8♠

fold, MP raises to 2.4 BB, fold, Hero calls 2.4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (6.2 BB, 2 players) Q♦ 6♥ 5♦
MP bets 4.44 BB, Hero calls 4.44 BB

Turn: (15.08 BB, 2 players) 5♥
MP bets 7.52 BB, Hero raises to 22.56 BB, MP calls 15.04 BB

River: (60.2 BB, 2 players) 5♠
MP bets 37.72 BB, fold

MP wins 57.2 BB

Thought it was borderline. is this too nitty? flatting my 3bet on the turn indicated a wide range including diamonds and straights draw. But betting into me on the river indicates value imo, and I don't think bluffing a missed flush or straight into a board like that is happening after I raised the turn.
Thank you for everyones responses since I began posting here.

Thank U 4 Posting

88 in a six max can be raised preflop some % of the time. It has over pair value and fits in well with our full 3 bet range. We also take control of the pot if our V are not crazy aggressive.

On the river I would need a read to fold but at this level of skill play it is most likely a fold. Many players would call with AA-QJ on the turn worried about you having the 5 then when the 5 comes on the river shove thinking you no longer have a 5. Expecting you to call with any full house which your turn raise suggested you had a pair of some kind or you were bluffing. So they shove. They do not expect you to bluff that river or to fold.

Hope this helps

gustav197poker · Oct 17, 2020

In my opinion the turn raise is not necessary. Specifically your hand reduces some important draws in V. For example, villain cannot have in his range 7-8hh (possibly one of the combos we don't want to block). From our perspective, we do not wish to raise the turn with a hand like Q8s, for the same reasons (liberate more draws for the range V). Further the opener has all the important "kickers" so we don't want isolation with the top of his range.
But if the idea on the turn was to represent a delayed bet that we could have made on the flop, that definitely improves our range on the river. Because on the turn, we were able to bluff with a hand like A8hh. This means that our OTR range contains more bluffs than values, because if we had a hand as a set of 6, we would probably be raising a lot OTF. So it makes more sense that we have weak hands like 8-6 that begged for fold equity for V OTT. So the villain could keep his A6s combos (because the fake blocker never really existed) and seek to trick us OTR. Additionally, the villain could use AKs and AJs as bluffs.
Our turn bet definitely neutralizes combos of villain like 9-9 and TT, which would not bet OTR because they work better to catch bluffs.
Greetings.

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$25 NLHE 6-max: Correct Fold?

basellne23

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1player2

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vsawake01

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Sidetracked

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300HPGOD

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tt124f

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eetenor

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