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Message: [QUOTE="twizzybop, post: 427391, member: 2990"] [B]Fold top pair on the flop to a bluff or smaller pair (what the second limper had - he folded when I raised), and a draw that probably doesn't even exist? Sounds weak-tight to me.[/B] It is said that the flop defines your hand. That is because after the flop your hand will be 71 percent complete. In your case it isn't even close to being completed. If the flop [U]does not fit your hand by giving you top pair, or better or a straight or flush draw[/U], then you should fold if there is a bet in front of you. If you played a small pair from late position and you do not flop a third one to make a set you should throw the pair away if there is a bet. Again in this case, there was a bet in front of you. This is the diffrence from me and you. You will bet, me I want 8,9 to come on the flop so I can represent more then top pair weak kicker. I honestly don't want to be up against K,8 and/or even A,8. Now weak cause I don't give alot of action on the flop unless I have something. That works to my advantage as well when people are paying attention. That means somewhere down the line I can use 8,9 and bet on the flop to take it down. Along with betting with 10,2 suited I limped in wit a flush draw showing on the board to take it down. I am going to be damned if I am going to give you money to try to make my hand, I want it to be reversed and have you give me money to try to make yours. [B]I'd be up against at least 3 others with the big blind in, and no-one's shown any strength. Harrington (Vol 1 p. 195) says with 3 limpers from the button you're in great shape and should call with all suited connectors down to 5-4. He doesn't say what to do with 2 limpers, but the pot alone is offering me 3.5:1 on my bet, not counting implied odds. I didn't just want to represent strength from the button... you're never going to have the best hand pre-flop with 8-9 if anyone holds a ten or better. It's dependent on hitting a good flop, as with all suited connector hands.[/B] Yes and is Harrington always right? Nope.. His book is just like anybody elses, guidelines. I rather have more in the flop or put more money into the pot with connectors especially when 2 are only limping. I may even get the blinds to fold with a raise here. I definately want money in this pot especially for the times the cards do miss. I don't want to win some rinky dink pot especially when my hand isn't made after the flop. There is a diffrence from being aggresive and being crazy. [B]He wouldn't need runner runner if he has 2 clubs in his hand?[/B] now magically you think he is on a flush draw? Quote"A draw that doesn't even exsist" Either the draw exsists or it don't. [B]I made a pot-sized bet, which is quite strong. Are you suggesting an overbet? If he's on a draw I [I]want [/I]him to call with incorrect odds, which is why I don't just go all-in. Plus I'm risking fewer chips if anyone has a stronger hand like a set. If I were re-raised here I'd have to throw it away, but there's no reason to think I don't have the best hand on the flop.[/B] this was allready agreed apon.. incorrect odds to call.. I never said any diffrently.. Plenty of reason why you don't think you have best hand, it is called a stronger kicker, if you can't put in the blinds aresenal of a stronger kicker especially after his call. Then by all means think you have the best hand. A,8 and K,8 is and will be a possibility.Then you forgot the possibility of the good reason why the blind called besides his incorrect odds, could think you are bluffing(stealing the pot cause of your position). [B] When the first bettor has folded and I'm left against the Big Blind, he could have any 2 cards. He caught some part of the flop or is on a draw, which is why he called the flop raise (elaborate bluff planning unlikely at this level). With 2 clubs on the flop it's much easier to imagine he has 2 clubs, and in fact this is much more likely from the number of card combinations than holding exactly 6-7:[/B] quote again from you "a draw that doesn't even exsist" So the rest you just factored up now, we can say actually say that. I am sure all those figures went through your head while thinking "a draw doesn't even exsist" [B]There's also an outside chance he's been slow-playing a high pair, which I beat.[/B] this would be his own foolishess for not betting out pre-flop, nobody but him to blame here if indeed he was playing a higher pair. The moral is: You tried to represent TPTK because of your position, the guy in the blind didn't believe you so he called. Yet the guy(s) who folded believed you had a higher kicker. Then again you could also be trying to represent a flush draw and bet on it yourself. [B] [/B] [/QUOTE]

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