$2 NLHE Full Ring: $ : Do I fold this jam?

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Mdf1992

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Hi all, I have a question about this hand. Should I have folded this shove with pocket tens? Looking back on it now, I'd say probably yeah..?

Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 112 BB
Hero (MP): 105.5 BB
MP+1: 79 BB
CO: 204.5 BB
BTN: 48.5 BB
SB: 109 BB
BB: 82 BB
UTG: 102 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T♠ T♣

fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, MP+1 calls 2.5 BB, CO raises to 12.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 10 BB, MP+1 calls 10 BB

Flop: (39 BB, 3 players) 2♣ 8♥ 4♥
Hero bets 19 BB, fold, CO raises to 192 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 74 BB and is all-in

Turn: (225 BB, 2 players) 5♠

River: (225 BB, 2 players) K♦

Hero shows T♠ T♣ (One Pair, Tens)
(Pre 19%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
CO shows K♣ K♥ (Three of a Kind, Kings)
(Pre 81%, Flop 92%, Turn 95%)
CO wins 214 BB

Should I have folded this shove? I mean yeah of course he is basically saying that he has JJ+ with the shove, but an AK AQ type bluff is also in his range eh? Idk. Brand new to this ranging stuff...

Thanks for any insight!
Mark
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
Standard open with TT, and its also standard to defend against the 3-bet by calling. However I will say, that at 2NL full ring there is not that much light 3-betting going on, so you could actually make a snug fold here, especially because you opened from EP, and there is also a field caller in between, which if nothing else makes his 3-bet come in larger.

The issue with continuing here is, that you are not quite deep enough to setmine, and you have a fair bit of reverse implied odds on low boards, when you flop an overpair, but the 3-better has a better overpair. I would also consider folding here, if I had a HUD running, and it showed numbers like 15/11 with a 3-bet of 4 AKA a nit. And again these kind of players are fairly common at 2NL full ring. Or at least they used to be, when I played it on Stars a 2-3 years ago.

Flop
I dont like leading here. Its kind of a protection bet, where you are mainly trying to fold out hands with overcards to your pair. But the issue with that is, you are going to be behind here fairly often, and you allow both opponents to play close to perfect. They are mostly folding hands, that have 25% equity or less and continuing with hands, that either have you crused or are flipping.

So in my opinion you definitely need to check here and then mostly look to check-call. As played you need to fold when jammed on. Yes you have an overpair, but JJ+ is a big part of his range, and the rest is mostly going to be flushdraws with 1 or even 2 overcards to your pair, and you are not even in great shape against those hands. Sure he could have some airball bluff like AK with no flushdraw, but thats going to be a very low frequenzy. Most people will either call or fold with that hand, they will not jam it in for 100+ BB.
 
jaworek1405

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Yeah, I agree in the large part with fundiver. IMO we can fold this pocket TT pre flop, because behind us is one player and we don't know what he can do. As played - IMO is better to play check call on the flop, it is better move than bet on the flop. If opponent raised you on the flop for me it is a fold, because I usually believe that he has better pocket pair than our TT. If you play check/call on the flop, opponent sometimes doesn't bluff you on the turn with two over cards, because he can get a scare that you had something. GL :)
 
monkey23

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it depends how good your oppo is....is your oppo 'range aware'..??

what would oppo put your range to be...what would oppo think you would assign his range to be..??

imo, this is way too much thinking for an average 2nl game.

oppo's pre flop 3 bet could indicate anything from a low pp to AA, or even AT ( sooted)+, as oppo has position on you.

oppo's turn shove however is polarising...even at 2nlhe...esp as there is a rainbow board, with no likely oesd draws in oppo's range...35 sooted..??..nah.

for oppo to shove on the turn, they will most likely have a set, A8sooted, or 99+. The only 2 hands in that range you beat, are A8std and 99...unless they are bluffing with a strong ace or turning A2std or A4std into a bluff.

It's very tough to fold an overpair, esp at 2nlhe...but the trick is, to think " WHAT (IN OPPO'S RANGE) CAN I BEAT HERE?"

i make no judgement on your call..none whatsoever. You must make your own mind up...sometimes a call would be profitable here...sometimes not.

keep up thinking in ranges...it's the way to go.

patience...tenacity..aggression....and may the farce be with ya.
 
greatgame230

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This is a complicated hand, but in my opinion you could avoid making a check / raise on the flop, the flop + the action in the Preflop at that moment told you that you should be winning the hand but a check / raise would have been easier identify the range of the villain since he had to seek to give value to the hand and his bet would not have been large and thus have a better idea of what we are facing (all this without information from the villain) and then fold
 
Vallet

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You do not use the information you receive on the preflop. The villain makes a 5 bet re-raise from the CO position. He is the aggressor and you do not need to exclude the possibility of his high pocket pair if you decide to call. The re-raise has given you the answer to your flop bet that you are still behind. You had a good stack at the table. I don't see the point in risking everything. Be more careful.
 
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Mdf1992

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fundiver199 said:
Preflop
Standard open with TT, and its also standard to defend against the 3-bet by calling. However I will say, that at 2NL full ring there is not that much light 3-betting going on, so you could actually make a snug fold here, especially because you opened from EP, and there is also a field caller in between, which if nothing else makes his 3-bet come in larger.

The issue with continuing here is, that you are not quite deep enough to setmine, and you have a fair bit of reverse implied odds on low boards, when you flop an overpair, but the 3-better has a better overpair. I would also consider folding here, if I had a HUD running, and it showed numbers like 15/11 with a 3-bet of 4 AKA a nit. And again these kind of players are fairly common at 2NL full ring. Or at least they used to be, when I played it on Stars a 2-3 years ago.

Flop
I dont like leading here. Its kind of a protection bet, where you are mainly trying to fold out hands with overcards to your pair. But the issue with that is, you are going to be behind here fairly often, and you allow both opponents to play close to perfect. They are mostly folding hands, that have 25% equity or less and continuing with hands, that either have you crused or are flipping.

So in my opinion you definitely need to check here and then mostly look to check-call. As played you need to fold when jammed on. Yes you have an overpair, but JJ+ is a big part of his range, and the rest is mostly going to be flushdraws with 1 or even 2 overcards to your pair, and you are not even in great shape against those hands. Sure he could have some airball bluff like AK with no flushdraw, but thats going to be a very low frequenzy. Most people will either call or fold with that hand, they will not jam it in for 100+ BB.
Click to expand...

Okay, thank you so much for this breakdown. I agree, I could have just folded pre-flop, and I don't see why I lead out on the flop, because like you said it was likely that he had JJ+ with that type of large 3-bet, especially like you said there aren't many 3-bets that aren't hugely strong in these microstakes. Thanks again for your time.
 
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Mdf1992

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jaworek1405 said:
Yeah, I agree in the large part with fundiver. IMO we can fold this pocket TT pre flop, because behind us is one player and we don't know what he can do. As played - IMO is better to play check call on the flop, it is better move than bet on the flop. If opponent raised you on the flop for me it is a fold, because I usually believe that he has better pocket pair than our TT. If you play check/call on the flop, opponent sometimes doesn't bluff you on the turn with two over cards, because he can get a scare that you had something. GL :)
Click to expand...


Thanks very much. I agree now.
 
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Mdf1992

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monkey23 said:
it depends how good your oppo is....is your oppo 'range aware'..??

what would oppo put your range to be...what would oppo think you would assign his range to be..??

imo, this is way too much thinking for an average 2nl game.

oppo's pre flop 3 bet could indicate anything from a low pp to AA, or even AT ( sooted)+, as oppo has position on you.

oppo's turn shove however is polarising...even at 2nlhe...esp as there is a rainbow board, with no likely oesd draws in oppo's range...35 sooted..??..nah.

for oppo to shove on the turn, they will most likely have a set, A8sooted, or 99+. The only 2 hands in that range you beat, are A8std and 99...unless they are bluffing with a strong ace or turning A2std or A4std into a bluff.

It's very tough to fold an overpair, esp at 2nlhe...but the trick is, to think " WHAT (IN OPPO'S RANGE) CAN I BEAT HERE?"

i make no judgement on your call..none whatsoever. You must make your own mind up...sometimes a call would be profitable here...sometimes not.

keep up thinking in ranges...it's the way to go.

patience...tenacity..aggression....and may the farce be with ya.
Click to expand...


Thank you so much man. I like that, and I'll try to think like that, and think in ranges and what I can beat in their range based on how strong he was betting.
 
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Mdf1992

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greatgame230 said:
This is a complicated hand, but in my opinion you could avoid making a check / raise on the flop, the flop + the action in the Preflop at that moment told you that you should be winning the hand but a check / raise would have been easier identify the range of the villain since he had to seek to give value to the hand and his bet would not have been large and thus have a better idea of what we are facing (all this without information from the villain) and then fold
Click to expand...


Hmm okay thank you for your insight!
 
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Mdf1992

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Vallet said:
You do not use the information you receive on the preflop. The villain makes a 5 bet re-raise from the CO position. He is the aggressor and you do not need to exclude the possibility of his high pocket pair if you decide to call. The re-raise has given you the answer to your flop bet that you are still behind. You had a good stack at the table. I don't see the point in risking everything. Be more careful.
Click to expand...


Got it. Thank you for your insight.
 
loafaBREAD

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Vallet said:
Sometimes you need to slow down to allow your opponent to bluff. But if he goes all in, then he has good cards in most cases.
This is not a tournament, you don't have to hurry.
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/324Ny6HWX
Click to expand...

TT on a low dry board oop in a 3! pot is a 'bluff catcher' type scenario. You check, V bets his AK/AQ overcards, you call to defend. leading here is not a good idea since V can play perfectly against this. I'd check 100% on this type of board.

Your name is 'mdf' so I assume you know what minimum defense frequency is... TT is likely in that % even versus a 5x raise oop. Usually you need 9:1 odds to set mine, which you barely make in this spot if V is getting all in with his overpairs (clearly he is). So I don't mind the call pre, but you should that 'set-mining/implied odds' mentality here.

If this guy is spewy and shoving with AK no draw, it will be easy to pick up money from him- just be patient and hope others don't bust him first! Check/call flop, evaluate turn.

Just put a note on this guy- #1 transparent 3-bet size with KK #2 transparent value shove-raise with overpair on 2 flush board. Next time you see him you can make painfully obvious counters to his play.

Note that if he plays JJ-AA like this, set mining becomes incredibly profitable. Use your imagination to come up with exploitative strategies. :smile:
 
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Pre:
You posted via PT4 but did not provide any stats or reads. This may be one of rare times I disagree with fundiver who gives excellent advice but it depends on reads whether or not I agree this time. At 2NL many players 3B ranges will be more static than they should and not really take into account enough who is raising and from what position. If this guy has a 3B stat of 3 or less then maybe I can start to get on board with folding pre otherwise I think he just shows up with too much AQ+ to fold TT here. IMO we aren't exclusively set mining with TT so we don't need a million to one to call but it WILL be difficult to realize our equity out of position. We will occasionally flop an over pair like we did here and have great showdown value, J high flops probably aren't super terrible either.

Flop:
As others have said though we do not want to donk lead with a 1/2 pot sized bet into this flop just because it looks safe. V's range is still uncapped and he has all the over pairs along with AQ+ so when we bet we allow him to fold when he's behind and get extra value when he's ahead. This is part of the power of position, this is why you don't want to make a habit of playing OOP without the initiative (implying a capped range most times). I think leading flop was a mistake and when V jams, even if he has AQhh or AKhh we are still behind 55/45. We literally only beat an air ball bluff so I think calling the rest off is also a mistake. If V is capable of this kind of crazy jam with a hand we can beat we should have probably noticed other crazy behavior by now. So this goes back to the theme of using your tools / stats / reads /notes to make the best possible decision in the moment.
 
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